Clubs going bust due to cv19

[Sergeant Wilson]

22 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

There is another task force doing exactly what you describe which features people from a variety of clubs at a variety of levels from across the country.

It's a bit like Brechin though. They can only pick from the pool they have. I don't have any more confidence in that group than any of the others.

[tamthebam]

13 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

It's a bit like Brechin though. They can only pick from the pool they have. I don't have any more confidence in that group than any of the others.

So to sum up: you're saying we can only pish about with the cocks we've got...

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, tamthebam said:

So to sum up: you're saying we can only pish about with the cocks we've got...

That’s about the size of it.

Maybe the whole reconstruction thing is just a distraction for the plebes while the toll on clubs starts thinning the herd.

[khalidonianb]

5 hours ago, TxRover said:

That’s about the size of it.

Maybe the whole reconstruction thing is just a distraction for the plebes while the toll on clubs starts thinning the herd.

That's a scarey thought.

[TxRover]

Knocking around looking at contract expirations, I found conflicting data, but here's a reasonable summary. There are a few questionable ones here and there, but it looks like the following number of players is what each team has clearly signed while not accounting for possible promotion/relegation clauses, and also may miss recent changes...the numbers are rough, I figure Raith is closer to 9, but...)

Celtic-30

Rangers & Hearts-25

Aberdeen-22

Hibs-19

Livingstone-18

Dundee Utd-17

Dundee-15

Partick & St. Johnstone-13

Dunfermline, ICT,  St. Mirren-12

Falkirk, Motherwell, Ross County & Stirling Albion-11

Raith-9

Elgin City & Montrose-8

Ayr, Clyde & Hamilton-7

Greenock & Kilmarnock-6

Airdrie, Cove, East Fife & Edinburgh City-5

Forfar, Peterhead & QoS-4

Arbroath & Stenhousemuir-3

Brechin-2

Alloa & Dumbarton-1

Albion Rovers, Annan, Cowdenbeath, Queens Park & Stranraer-0

Edited May 18, 2020 by TxRover
Edited to change Raith to 9 signed beyond June.

[parsforlife]

I guess our number is main,y u20 players and I would guess that would be the same for others.

 

by my count we have 5 first team players signed up.  Dow, nisbet, Murray, Martin and lang(though he hasn’t made any first team appearances apart from the diddy cup which barely counts. Comrie might have triggered his extension.

Edited May 18, 2020 by parsforlife

[As Easterly as it gets!]

9 hours ago, parsforlife said:

I guess our number is main,y u20 players and I would guess that would be the same for others.

 

by my count we have 5 first team players signed up.  Dow, nisbet, Murray, Martin and lang(though he hasn’t made any first team appearances apart from the diddy cup which barely counts. Cromrie might have triggered his extension.

It could be some clubs may have to rely on U20 players for quite a while. 

Experienced players outside the SPL may have to lower their financial expectations in order to have a job.

 

[parsforlife]

1 minute ago, As Easterly as it gets! said:

It could be some clubs may have to rely on U20 players for quite a while. 

Experienced players outside the SPL may have to lower their financial expectations in order to have a job.

 

I keep hearing of players having to take a pay cut. My question is how much ? The financials of playing behind closed doors won’t cover those already on the books. Even under limited crowds there won’t be much left over.  There isn’t much of a gap between what players currently earn and what you can live off without another job, we can’t just slash wages and carry on. 

[As Easterly as it gets!]

32 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

I keep hearing of players having to take a pay cut. My question is how much ? The financials of playing behind closed doors won’t cover those already on the books. Even under limited crowds there won’t be much left over.  There isn’t much of a gap between what players currently earn and what you can live off without another job, we can’t just slash wages and carry on. 

I get what you're saying and that is why U20 players may be de rigueur for some clubs for quite a while. I was looking more at full time pros with clubs such as Partick, QotS, ICT etc.

Part time players not so much.

And if it comes to cutting wages or the club going bust? 

 

[parsforlife]

15 minutes ago, As Easterly as it gets! said:

I get what you're saying and that is why U20 players may be de rigueur for some clubs for quite a while. I was looking more at full time pros with clubs such as Partick, QotS, ICT etc.

Part time players not so much.

And if it comes to cutting wages or the club going bust? 

 

Full time pros on the championship are probably the ones least able to drop wages.

Clubs will cut their wage bill, but that will be by having less pros on the books and not those under contract cutting wages. 

[The Moonster]

3 hours ago, As Easterly as it gets! said:

It could be some clubs may have to rely on U20 players for quite a while. 

Experienced players outside the SPL may have to lower their financial expectations in order to have a job.

 

Not sure these two sentences go together. If all clubs have less money then players will need to accept less money. No footballer, part time or full time, is going to be demanding wages that no club can give them, they'd be daft to do so. I don't see how clubs will need to rely on U20 players when this is done.

2 hours ago, parsforlife said:

Full time pros on the championship are probably the ones least able to drop wages.

Clubs will cut their wage bill, but that will be by having less pros on the books and not those under contract cutting wages. 

Obviously clubs can't just cut the wages of already contracted players without agreement, but pros without a club when this is all over will need to take what's on offer or chuck it - I don't see the latter being a popular option. Clubs will still have squads of 20+ senior players, it's just that the guy who previously earned £300 a week might not have any offers of £300 a week. 

[CALDERON]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

Not sure these two sentences go together. If all clubs have less money then players will need to accept less money. No footballer, part time or full time, is going to be demanding wages that no club can give them, they'd be daft to do so. I don't see how clubs will need to rely on U20 players when this is done.

Obviously clubs can't just cut the wages of already contracted players without agreement, but pros without a club when this is all over will need to take what's on offer or chuck it - I don't see the latter being a popular option. Clubs will still have squads of 20+ senior players, it's just that the guy who previously earned £300 a week might not have any offers of £300 a week. 

Yeah, thats the "plus" I guess for clubs.  Players can't go and sign for anyone else right now, we are literally all in the same boat - and the players will have very little if any bargaining power when we do play football again.

 

[parsforlife]

51 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Not sure these two sentences go together. If all clubs have less money then players will need to accept less money. No footballer, part time or full time, is going to be demanding wages that no club can give them, they'd be daft to do so. I don't see how clubs will need to rely on U20 players when this is done.

Obviously clubs can't just cut the wages of already contracted players without agreement, but pros without a club when this is all over will need to take what's on offer or chuck it - I don't see the latter being a popular option. Clubs will still have squads of 20+ senior players, it's just that the guy who previously earned £300 a week might not have any offers of £300 a week. 

Is there any money left to make new signings? With very little income clubs will struggle to meet their obligations to players that are already signed up.  

This isn’t players dropping from £300 p/w to £150.  It’s going say £700 pw to nothing.  Players are going to be doing all they can to make ends meet and playing amateur is not going to be high on their considerations.  A squad that’s 50% full time and 50% amateur is  also going to be near impossible to manage effectively.

[The Moonster]

3 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Is there any money left to make new signings? With very little income clubs will struggle to meet their obligations to players that are already signed up.  

This isn’t players dropping from £300 p/w to £150.  It’s going say £700 pw to nothing.  Players are going to be doing all they can to make ends meet and playing amateur is not going to be high on their considerations.  A squad that’s 50% full time and 50% amateur is  also going to be near impossible to manage effectively.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing here. If clubs can't meet current obligations I imagine they'll be liquidated if no further support is forthcoming - they won't be around to make new signings when football restarts. If clubs do survive through this then when the football starts again they'll get their income stream back, so they'll have money to offer players. They probably won't have as much as they used to have as they've been struggling to make ends meet with no income for months, but to the point they're asking players to play on amateur terms for hee-haw? I can't see it.

 

[parsforlife]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

I'm not really sure what you're arguing here. If clubs can't meet current obligations I imagine they'll be liquidated if no further support is forthcoming - they won't be around to make new signings when football restarts. If clubs do survive through this then when the football starts again they'll get their income stream back, so they'll have money to offer players. They probably won't have as much as they used to have as they've been struggling to make ends meet with no income for months, but to the point they're asking players to play on amateur terms for hee-haw? I can't see it.

 

This is in a closed door scenario where income is very low yet clubs need to field squads. 

Once we get fans back in the stadiums we’ll be virtually back to normal.  

[The Moonster]

2 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

This is in a closed door scenario where income is very low yet clubs need to field squads. 

Once we get fans back in the stadiums we’ll be virtually back to normal.  

Apologies, crossed wires here. I don't think playing behind closed doors is even remotely feasible for any club in the lower leagues and probably most of the Premiership too. I can't help but feel all the chat about possible solutions to get playing again is just lip service to keep that wee light shining at the end of the tunnel for fans. I'm really struggling to see a workable scenario before a vaccine/seriously good treatment becomes available.

[Shadwell Dog]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

Apologies, crossed wires here. I don't think playing behind closed doors is even remotely feasible for any club in the lower leagues and probably most of the Premiership too. I can't help but feel all the chat about possible solutions to get playing again is just lip service to keep that wee light shining at the end of the tunnel for fans. I'm really struggling to see a workable scenario before a vaccine/seriously good treatment becomes available.

I agree. If closed doors was an option they would still be looking at finishing this season in the top flight.  The fact it's not an option for the top flight means theres feck all chance of it happening at any level below that's for sure.

[TxRover]

There is a much deeper and darker issue here, and it will be about clubs decisions contingent upon announced plans and closely held financial data. As it stands, clubs can keep their players furloughed and paid 80%, soon to be 60%, without much cost to the club (just a little administrative overhead). However, some clubs are topping up player salaries to 100% and some aren’t. The same applies to some club employees as well, and is likely to color employees, players and fans views of clubs, even if only in a minor way.

There is a fair chance that some to many clubs will not elect to extend contracts of many players whose contracts are expiring, and we suddenly have a glut of unsigned players who have a perhaps somewhat less loving feeling toward their previous club. Even stickier would be clubs who feel they have to extend a couple of key players and let the others adrift. Som of these players will leave the game, making the lower levels of Scottish football all the weaker.

The ultimate issue will be smaller/weaker clubs with potential star players under contract. Cutting the contract would be throwing away money, but at some point the options narrow. If a revenue stream for the smaller and/or financially ailing clubs isn’t found, even if they find a way to survive, a number of clubs will be significantly weaker with a lucky few strengthened by this outbreak and the opportunity it brought their way.

On a more serious note, how many HL/LL teams would be financially viable to leap up to League Two competition with any expectation of even the mildest success?

[The Moonster]

31 minutes ago, TxRover said:

There is a fair chance that some to many clubs will not elect to extend contracts of many players whose contracts are expiring, and we suddenly have a glut of unsigned players who have a perhaps somewhat less loving feeling toward their previous club. Even stickier would be clubs who feel they have to extend a couple of key players and let the others adrift. Som of these players will leave the game, making the lower levels of Scottish football all the weaker.

I'm not sure this will happen to be honest. I can't speak for other clubs, but at Dumbarton Duffy has said that all of the players are fully understanding of the situation and even though he wants to keep most of them here we can't offer them anything until the new season comes clearer. We will absolutely need to release these players at the end of their deals and I don't think we should be expecting them to come back if they don't want to. But I'm struggling to see why the player in this instance would feel any ill-will towards the club here? They had a contract, the club has honoured it as best they can given the circumstances and sadly didn't have the resources to offer them a new deal. What else is the player expecting?

Some players might leave the game altogether and find themselves other work, but I think that number will be tiny. Footballers generally love playing football more than painting and decorating or delivering for DPD, so whilst they may find other work when no football is on, I reckon you'll find most of them are happy to return when it comes back.

 

[Reggie Perrin]

I'm not sure this will happen to be honest. I can't speak for other clubs, but at Dumbarton Duffy has said that all of the players are fully understanding of the situation and even though he wants to keep most of them here we can't offer them anything until the new season comes clearer. We will absolutely need to release these players at the end of their deals and I don't think we should be expecting them to come back if they don't want to. But I'm struggling to see why the player in this instance would feel any ill-will towards the club here? They had a contract, the club has honoured it as best they can given the circumstances and sadly didn't have the resources to offer them a new deal. What else is the player expecting?
Some players might leave the game altogether and find themselves other work, but I think that number will be tiny. Footballers generally love playing football more than painting and decorating or delivering for DPD, so whilst they may find other work when no football is on, I reckon you'll find most of them are happy to return when it comes back.
 

I think you have a bit of a rose tinted view of the situation the players find themselves in.
It’s a given that footballers love playing the game but in the case of full time players it is their livelihood.
Mortgages and bills need to be paid and some guys will need to make some very hard decisions in the not too distant future.