League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, Sparticus said:

Any reconstruction would be a step backwards.Its not happening.

It could have been worse.Imagine the league was cancelled the day before you played St Mirren?

You would have gone down but would have been eternal torture.At least now you know you lost the relegation battle fairly and can happily pop down to the championship knowing it's fully deserved.

It's not a conversation if you don't answer questions the other person asks.

[Dons_1988]

1 hour ago, JTS98 said:

 

So, Celtic still have the deck in their favour. They basically have to win three home games. But you introduce the chance that someone else might win. It could be very exciting and I fail to see how anyone could prefer the current set-up. Like I said though, I know almost nobody agrees.

There's an elephant in the room missing here.

European football.

European football generates big income for the game. The SPFL want our best representatives in Europe year on year. They would recoil in horror if an Aberdeen or Hearts somehow stole Celtic's champions league place in a playoff situation.

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

 

Clearly this is the best plan and if you disagree you're an OF sympathiser.

 

You're going quite aggressive on this. I don't really understand why.

My suggestion is to do something to mitigate the advantage that big clubs have. Leagues were first devised in a home and away style when the sport was essentially amateur. My argument is that they are no longer fit for use in that form in a sport where the financial inequalities have reached the stage they are at now.

I'd make the same case for Serie A, La Liga, Ligue Un etc.

Sport needs competition. In Scotland we do not have that.

I think Celtic would still win the title most seasons with a play-off system. I think my suggestions meets them halfway in that they retain the advantage of their wealth and they have a format that still rewards them for that. But it also makes it easier for someone else to win a title.

I'm pretty sure that in 35 years of a play-off system we would have more than two winners. I think that would be better for our game.

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, Dons_1988 said:

There's an elephant in the room missing here.

European football.

European football generates big income for the game. The SPFL want our best representatives in Europe year on year. They would recoil in horror if an Aberdeen or Hearts somehow stole Celtic's champions league place in a playoff situation.

I've thought about that.

None of the Scottish sides outside the Old Firm do well in the Europa League. So let's say we move Kilmarnock from the Europa League qualifiers to the Champions League qualifiers. They'll probably get pumped, but they get pumped in the Europa League anyway. The loss to the coefficient is nothing, really.

The Old Firm have shown that their budgets are sufficient to do quite well in the Europa League. While Celtic get battered in the Champions League, having them in the Europa League instead is pretty good for the coefficient.

I don't really see how Scottish football loses from this. Celtic would lose, yes, but that would be because they'd failed to win a title wit hthe deck in their favour.

[Sparticus]

1 hour ago, JTS98 said:

There is nothing 'fair' about a round-robin competition where one club has an absolute f**k-tonne more money than any other club in the competition, and whose dominance gives them a virtuous cycle of hoovering up more money every year. It's a stretch to call that a sporting competition with integrity

Well as the old firm have more cash than everyone else, so do Hearts have more cash than most to finish in the top four etc.same coin.

Hearts actually get a helping hand with mysterious benefactors handing them extra cash.Fair?

Edited May 7, 2020 by Sparticus

[ropy]

37 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

This has been done to death on here, but if Aberdeen were bottom of the league, then that post would be exactly the same but with 'Aberdeen' subbed in.

If St Mirren were bottom of the league, they'd be squealing about it and getting friendly journalists to fight their corner.

It would apply to any club in this position. And why not?

Can you think of any clubs who would just accept relegation without the season being finished? Also, if Hearts are some kind of special case, then why now? Why not in the past?

There was no talk of reconstruction when we were facing relegation in 1999 (which we avoided with a strong run in our last 8 fixtures). Or when we went down with about a year's notice in 2014. Why now?

But there will be an asterisk against your relegation so it’s all good

[Dons_1988]

1 minute ago, JTS98 said:

I've thought about that.

None of the Scottish sides outside the Old Firm do well in the Europa League. So let's say we move Kilmarnock from the Europa League qualifiers to the Champions League qualifiers. They'll probably get pumped, but they get pumped in the Europa League anyway. The loss to the coefficient is nothing, really.

The Old Firm have shown that their budgets are sufficient to do quite well in the Europa League. While Celtic get battered in the Champions League, having them in the Europa League instead is pretty good for the coefficient.

I don't really see how Scottish football loses from this. Celtic would lose, yes, but that would be because they'd failed to win a title wit hthe deck in their favour.

That may be true but no one at Celtic or the SPFL for that matter is going to say 'yeah it's fine, we get pumped in the CL anyway'. It wasn't that long ago they qualified for it and getting into the group's is all they need to do for a huge benefit. They can get pumped 7-0 6 times and still reap huge benefits.

I don't disagree with you, that system to determine champions would make the domestic game far more exciting.

But you're going beyond league reconstruction now. You're now trying to convince the clubs and authorities to break tradition that a league season is the fairest way to determine the best team (clearly if all things were equal, it is). The outcry in Glasgow if a team 25 points behind at the end of the league season was crowned champions in a playoff would be deafening. If they lost out on the CL to a Killie sneaking a playoff final in a backs to the wall 1-0 win the meltdown would be epic.

But ultimately, the OF would push to leave Scottish football for good (Yes I know, this could be a good thing) to chase the riches of England. They would royally throw the toys out the pram.

I understand that evrything I said sounds like a great laugh, and of course it would be, but it simply isn't going to happen.

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, Sparticus said:

Well as the old firm have more cash than everyone else, so do Hearts have more cash than most to finish in the top four etc.same coin.

Hearts actually geta helping hand with mysterious benefactors handing them extra cash.Fair?

It is the same coin, yes.

However, Scottish football's problem is not that they same teams lock down top-four football. They do not. The inequalities are not great enough at that level. Hearts' budget isn't so huge that they can't be bottom of the league.

It's problem is that we've had one champion in almost a decade and two since Ronald Reagan was President of the USA.

I think play-offs are a good way to move towards levelling that out a bit. Of course, you can't completely negate the fact that Celtic have around eighty million quid of revenue in a non-Champions League year, but you can tweak the format to make it a little more likely that someone else might win.

[RandomGuy.]

13 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I'm pretty sure that in 35 years of a play-off system we would have more than two winners. I think that would be better for our game.

I'd rather teams focused on trying to be the best they could, rather than your Aberdeen type sides understanding all they have to do is finish 4th to potentially win the league.

Aberdeen just now are spending a fortune trying to catch Rangers and Celtic, Cormack pumping millions in.

Why would they bother under your system? Just stick with it what you have, finish 4th and hope you scab a win at Celtic Park once a decade.

Exciting stuff I'm sure, and at least absolute weirdos in Croatia looking at our past winners would see a different team name every 6 years, and that's more important than actually trying to progress. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by RandomGuy.

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, ropy said:

But there will be an asterisk against your relegation so it’s all good

Again, if you're not going to actually engage with a post, why quote it?

[Dons_1988]

Just now, RandomGuy. said:

Aberdeen just now are spending a fortune trying to catch Rangers and Celtic, Cormack pumping millions in.

That isn't true.

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, Dons_1988 said:

That isn't true.

How much did you spend on your new right back in January?

How much has your wage bill increased in the past few seasons?

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, RandomGuy. said:

I'd rather teams focused on trying to be the best they could, rather than your Aberdeen type sides understanding all they have to do is finish 4th to potentially win the league.

Aberdeen just now are spending a fortune trying to catch Rangers and Celtic, Cormack pumping millions in.

Why would they bother under your system? Just stick with it what you have, finish 4th and hope you scab a win at Celtic Park once a decade.

Exciting stuff I'm sure, and at least absolute weirdos in Croatia looking at our past winners would see a different team name every 6 years, and that important.

I couldn't care less what anyone from Croatia thinks. I'm a Scottish football fan. I care what I think and I care about what I am watching.

I disagree with your point that clubs would not invest in their progress.

Firstly, Aberdeen would still wish to compete in European football and do well there. Secondly, nothing would change in that finishing higher up the league would be a huge advantage. And having a good team would obviously make a club more likely to win the play-offs than having a bad team.

You say you want clubs to be the best they can be. Under this suggestion, the best St Johnstone can be is champions. In the current set-u the best they can be is third once every few years.

As for your 'exciting stuff' comment, I think it would be a great deal more exciting than what we have now.

[Guest JTS98]

5 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

That may be true but no one at Celtic or the SPFL for that matter is going to say 'yeah it's fine,

Like I said from the beginning, I understand that almost nobody agrees with me.

However, Scottish football is a lot bigger than just Celtic, and the interests of the whole would be much better served by a format like this, in my view.

We've been conditioned, like fans in many countries, to accept that the way football is is the way football has to be. That's not the case. The old formats and ideas that were designed for an amateur sport in the late 19th century are clearly no longer working in 21st century football. Football needs radical change to reinvigorate competition, which now only meaningfully exists for supporters of a pretty tiny minority of football clubs worldwide.

I know people disagree with me. But I think play-offs are essentially the only way. Wage caps etc are not going to happen.

[RandomGuy.]

8 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

You say you want clubs to be the best they can be. Under this suggestion, the best St Johnstone can be is champions. In the current set-u the best they can be is third once every few years.

No, St Johnstone wouldnt be champions ever in that situation. How many teams win 3 games in a row against top 4 opposition apart from Celtic, especially when most of them are away. I'd comfortably say St Johnstone have never managed that 3 games in a row against that standard of opposition. 

Celtic dont lose home league games to anyone but Rangers these days, no other club consistently wins away games to top 4 sides other than Celtic.

You've absolutely convinced yourself you've discovered some incredible idea that will revolutionize the whole thing, but you've not. All your plan is just an extension to the season which takes Celtics chances of winning it from 100% to 99.9%.

That's fine, if it makes you feel better than other folk in this world where you lead some glorious charge against the OF dominance and all who disagree are enemies, then that's fine. I just disagree, and feel like teams like Aberdeen actually progressing steadily as a club, with the knowledge that Celtic will hit an poor spell again, will be better long term.

If Aberdeen could get strong when Celtic arent, and start taking titles/CL money regularly, you've then got a belief instilled in other clubs its doable if they get it right. Your Hearts/Hibs would then start building for a long term challenge. Ideally youd have 4/5 teams capable of fighting for the title, sharing the CL money amongst them and youd be less likely to have this current situation with Celtic being miles ahead.

Short term rewards for no long term gain (play off wins) helps nobody, if clubs genuinely want to challenge they need to be able to sustain it. 

St Johnstone? We'll never win the league in my lifetime unless you remove about 6 clubs from the country, that's just how it is

Edited May 7, 2020 by RandomGuy.

[Dons_1988]

1 minute ago, RandomGuy. said:

How much did you spend on your new right back in January?

How much has your wage bill increased in the past few seasons?

I'm not going to argue with you on how much we spend, as no one knows Aberdeen's finances, details of contracts, transfer fees etc like you do.

I take issue with 'Cormack pumping millions in' and 'to catch Rangers and Celtic'. Cormack has predominantly invested (and found investment from elsewhere) to fund infrastructure like the new training ground and further down the line a new stadium.

His interest is to grow our natural income and help us become regulars in the Europa league group stages (ambitious clearly, but why not), not to catch Rangers & Celtic. Because our revenues will never match them.

The idea that he's some sort of Roman Abramovich/Romanov type pumping millions in to make us a Scottish football superpower is nonsense.

[Dons_1988]

4 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Like I said from the beginning, I understand that almost nobody agrees with me.

However, Scottish football is a lot bigger than just Celtic, and the interests of the whole would be much better served by a format like this, in my view.

We've been conditioned, like fans in many countries, to accept that the way football is is the way football has to be. That's not the case. The old formats and ideas that were designed for an amateur sport in the late 19th century are clearly no longer working in 21st century football. Football needs radical change to reinvigorate competition, which now only meaningfully exists for supporters of a pretty tiny minority of football clubs worldwide.

I know people disagree with me. But I think play-offs are essentially the only way. Wage caps etc are not going to happen.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.

But as much as football likes to market itself for the fans, ultimately we're talking about a capitalist endeavour here, and what you're suggesting doesn't maximise returns for the stakeholders of Scottish football. The damage to European participation and the long term potential loss of the OF would see this notion laughed out the room.

From a purist footballing point of view, I agree with you completely. If Scottish football existed in a bubble it might work, but it doesn't, we rely on the global/continental nature of it all too much for that.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I dont think shortening the season will stop a team with such a financial advantage would make any difference.. 

I did say “marginally”

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, RandomGuy. said:

1) No, St Johnstone wouldnt be champions ever in that situation. How many teams win 3 games in a row against top 4 opposition apart from Celtic, especially when most of them are away. I'd comfortably say St Johnstone have never managed that 3 games in a row against that standard of opposition.

2) You've absolutely convinced yourself you've discovered some incredible idea that will revolutionize the whole thing, but you've not.

That's fine, if it makes you feel better than other folk in this world where you lead some glorious charge against the OF dominance and all who disagree are enemies, then that's fine.

3) If Aberdeen could get strong when Celtic arent, and start taking titles/CL money regularly, you've then got a belief instilled in other clubs its doable if they get it right. Your Hearts/Hibs would then start building for a long term challenge. Ideally youd have 4/5 teams capable of fighting for the title, sharing the CL money amongst them and youd be less likely to have this current situation with Celtic being miles ahead.

1) I don't think St Johnstone would be racking up title after title, no, but they'd have a shot. There's nothing to say they wouldn't win a title some time at all. Any team finishing 3rd or 4th would need a lot of breaks and to punch above their weight for a few games, but that can happen. And it would happen sometimes. Certainly over 35 years, we'd see a couple of extra winners at least.

2) Again, you seem to be making this quite personal and aggressive because we've argued before. That's up to you, but I'd encourage you to post the ball and not the man.

3) That's applying 1980s logic to the current situation. No matter how well-run a non-Old Firm club is, nobody is going to beat them to the title over 38 games. It's not going to happen. We have 35 years of evidence of that. Not only are clubs not winning it, but they're not even getting close to winning it, even in an era where meany of them have spent their way into heavy debt. I disagree with you that it is realistic for Aberdeen or Hearts or anybody else to build towards winning the Scottish Premiership in its current format. You can't keep a good team together long enough to do that.

[RandomGuy.]

3 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

 

His interest is to grow our natural income and help us become regulars in the Europa league group stages (ambitious clearly, but why not), not to catch Rangers & Celtic. Because our revenues will never match them.

His entire schtick when joining was to catch Rangers and Celtic m8.