The Dundee United Thread 22/23

[ArabFC]

2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

If you can name a single player in our squad that is more creative than Shankland I’d like to hear it.

Creative or not, you've basically left Fuchs in midfield on his own., which is, erm... bold?!

I won't bother picking my own team, but I would like it if Micky could pick a formation and approach and stick with it for a few games rather than his tombola approach to each game.

 

[arab_joe]

On 28/01/2021 at 15:13, Tannadeechee said:

We have signed players from Premiership teams, with Premiership experience, have international caps, have captained Premiership teams on Premiership money.

I think we are both arguing the same point, here - the players are not good enough, regardless of their experience, previous careers, decent wages etc.  They are just not playing anywhere near "Premiership" level football.  When I was watching the Hibs game yesterday I was trying to think which of our players would be coveted by the other 7 teams on our level in the Premiership (i.e. not Old Firm, Aberdeen or Hibs) - and the reality is that we have Benji, Fuchs and Shankland.  Beyond that, none of those 7 teams are jealous of anyone in our squad (perhaps with the exception of a couple of youth players, who have potential but as yet no end product). 

My point was, however, that I do not believe that is Micky Mellon's fault - this is on the Ogrens, Tony Asghar and Robbie Neilson (if Robbie had significant input in player recruitment and contracts - of which I am not sure).  As a rule of thumb, I try to avoid judging a manager until they have led the team for at least a season - and Arabs seem to be forgetting that Mellon only took over in July.

On 28/01/2021 at 15:54, invergowrie arab said:

I'll say it again that this is a squad that should be in a relegation fight, and that's where we are.

This.

On 28/01/2021 at 16:56, mishtergrolsch said:

We limped along last season with a monstrous wage bill overpaying pish players who often struggled against part time teams. Thats on RN and TA. 

We're playing better teams now but we still broadly have the same imbalanced, thin squad.

As hard as this is for Arabs to hear, we are overachieving this season.  We aren't the same club that was relegated and it will take a good few years to get back to that level.

On 28/01/2021 at 17:36, Mvondo_the_great said:

As long as we stay up this season he has done a great job. 

This - and as much as it pains other Arabs, I think we should give him until the end of the season to prove that he is up to the task.

On 28/01/2021 at 18:30, Tannadeechee said:

Let's also be fair, if the last few performances had been under Robbie, Csaba, Ray, Mixu or Jackie there would have been uproar.

If they'd only been in the job for 6 months, were hampered by a global pandemic, had only been able to sign 4 first-team players and had been playing against Premiership teams then I'd like to think that Arabs would have been a bit more objective.

On 29/01/2021 at 00:56, Torfason said:

I have no idea how they do it but they get a performance that is far beyond the sum of their parts.

Their plastic pitch certainly aids with their home form...

On 29/01/2021 at 08:40, ATLIS said:

We're one of the only teams in Scotland to use almost fully data based recruitment. 

...and a plastic pitch.

On 29/01/2021 at 15:58, Dundee Hibernian said:

It's probably fair to say Mellon isn't playing to Shankland's strengths, due to weaknesses in the overall squad.

Shankland isn't scoring goals, but his overall performance level is excellent - I'm always impressed by his work-rate, his tracking back (yesterday he was overtaking our midfiled when Hibs broke), his defending of corners (could teach our defenders a thing or two) and if we could somehow get a winger that could cross a ball (I don't want us to sign Conway in the summer but sweet Jesus how I wish we had him now...) he would already be off to far bigger and better things.

 

[mishtergrolsch]

10 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

If you can name a single player in our squad that is more creative than Shankland I’d like to hear it.

 

Shankland is the best striker at the club and you're playing him in midfield. Thats crazy imo. He's already wasted due to poor service and you'd then move him out of position and away from where he's most dangerous? 

Plus you've left out Butcher from the team, the second best midfielder / best centre half at the club.

This all just highlights how terrible a job RN and TA have done building the squad and this is why I have alot of sympathy for MM and zero time for Asghar. How many central midfielders have we got? Harkes, Powers, King, Butcher, Fuchs, Pawlett. Thats 6 for 2 or 3 first team slots maximum.

1 won't have played 90 mins for us in about 2 years, 2 weren't good enough last year, ones really a centre half, ones gubbed and the other has just arrived but looks decent but none can be looked on as a regular playmaker. Well, one that will last 90 mins anyway.

And thats not including Hoti who was signed then jettisoned to Forfar almost straight away which does not bode well. And then there's the youth lads who aren't getting a look in for that position.

90% of this squad needs thrown in the bin. I know Mellon said he wanted to give the players a chance, "champions" blah blah, but thats clearly because he didnt have a choice as there wasn't enough to rebuild.

This team was on the downward spiral and we were almost looking over our shoulders last season till the league was stopped. I think people are forgetting that. And forgetting some of the bowfing performances against part time teams and just see the points gap at finish.

Over £4 millions pounds a season for this lot. Let that sink in.

[RandomGuy.]

Livi fans will be along shortly, but the plastic pitch argument put forward by @arab_joe sort of falls apart when you look at those who have them in the top flight.

If its some miracle cure for winning games, then I'd doubt Hamilton/Kilmarnock would 10th/11th in the home form table, and Livingston would've won more than 42% of their home games...

[afc_blockhead]

14 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Livi fans will be along shortly, but the plastic pitch argument put forward by @arab_joe sort of falls apart when you look at those who have them in the top flight.

If its some miracle cure for winning games, then I'd doubt Hamilton/Kilmarnock would 10th/11th in the home form table, and Livingston would've won more than 42% of their home games...

2018/19 - Livi won 32 of 46 points at home (1 away league win all season)

2019/20 - Livi won 28 of 39 points at home (2 away league wins all season)

The pitch at Livi clearly has helped them stay up in the past 2 seasons. Whilst not playing on it they won 3 (away) games in the league in 2 seasons! 

Edited January 31, 2021 by afc_blockhead

[mishtergrolsch]

1 hour ago, arab_joe said:

I think we are both arguing the same point, here - the players are not good enough, regardless of their experience, previous careers, decent wages etc.  They are just not playing anywhere near "Premiership" level football. 

This is the entire point right here.

They may have played at Premiership level but they are not at that standard any more, or they never were that standard which is why we signed them in the Championship.

Perhaps they may even go on to become "cogs" in a different Premiership team but right now they don't fit in ours very well.

 

And can we stop looking at Livingston as a comparison? They actually have a guy that looks at the stats of tons of players, how they compare with others, how that would improve their team and the likes.

We don't have anything that resembles that.

[RandomGuy.]

30 minutes ago, afc_blockhead said:

2018/19 - Livi won 32 of 46 points at home (1 away league win all season)

2019/20 - Livi won 28 of 39 points at home (2 away league wins all season)

The pitch at Livi clearly has helped them stay up in the past 2 seasons. Whilst not playing on it they won 3 (away) games in the league in 2 seasons! 

They were 8th in the away table last season, only losing 9 of 16 matches. They're currently 5th for away games this season.

It's complete pish peddled almost exclusively by fans of bigger clubs desperate to explain why a wee diddy club gets results they can't.

Edited January 31, 2021 by RandomGuy.

[mishtergrolsch]

31 minutes ago, afc_blockhead said:

2018/19 - Livi won 32 of 46 points at home (1 away league win all season)

2019/20 - Livi won 28 of 39 points at home (2 away league wins all season)

The pitch at Livi clearly has helped them stay up in the past 2 seasons. Whilst not playing on it they won 3 (away) games in the league in 2 seasons! 

Does the plastic pitch help players complete 5 yard passes, beat the first man with a cross and not defend like a couple of dads making up the numbers at a 7 a side game with their teenage kids?

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, mishtergrolsch said:

Shankland is the best striker at the club and you're playing him in midfield. Thats crazy imo. He's already wasted due to poor service and you'd then move him out of position and away from where he's most dangerous? 

Plus you've left out Butcher from the team, the second best midfielder / best centre half at the club.

This all just highlights how terrible a job RN and TA have done building the squad and this is why I have alot of sympathy for MM and zero time for Asghar. How many central midfielders have we got? Harkes, Powers, King, Butcher, Fuchs, Pawlett. Thats 6 for 2 or 3 first team slots maximum.

1 won't have played 90 mins for us in about 2 years, 2 weren't good enough last year, ones really a centre half, ones gubbed and the other has just arrived but looks decent but none can be looked on as a regular playmaker. Well, one that will last 90 mins anyway.

And thats not including Hoti who was signed then jettisoned to Forfar almost straight away which does not bode well. And then there's the youth lads who aren't getting a look in for that position.

90% of this squad needs thrown in the bin. I know Mellon said he wanted to give the players a chance, "champions" blah blah, but thats clearly because he didnt have a choice as there wasn't enough to rebuild.

This team was on the downward spiral and we were almost looking over our shoulders last season till the league was stopped. I think people are forgetting that. And forgetting some of the bowfing performances against part time teams and just see the points gap at finish.

Over £4 millions pounds a season for this lot. Let that sink in.

There’s two debates.  We can have the bitch and moan debate about how we’ve got here, I’m happy to indulge in that debate and no doubt will do so again before the season ends.

Then there’s the debate about what we do to avoid relegation this season; anyone who thinks that’s theoretical is kidding themselves.

Assuming we are not going to add to the squad what are our options.  Playing Shankland in midfield is never going to happen but he’s head and shoulders above everyone in terms of creativity and I reckon would be more effective there than he is at present or that any other player we have would be.  Or we could leave him as is and hope he gets the service to add to his four league goals this season.

As for having sympathy for Mellon, yes he’s largely inherited the squad but he’s brought in Edwards who can’t get a game ahead of Reynolds or Connolly, he’s brought in Bolton who has not proven himself, he’s brought in McNulty and is playing him out of position*.  In addition he cannot organise the team to defend set pieces, he is trying to shoehorn three strikers into a starting lineup, and he is not giving other players a chance, so any sympathy I have for him is very limited.

* I know the irony giving what I’m suggesting but I reckon Shankland could play an attacking midfield role whereas it suits neither Clark or McNulty.

Anyway, none of this will happen, Mellon will continue as he has, the performances will be shite and he’ll come out after the game saying we played OK.

 

[afc_blockhead]

26 minutes ago, mishtergrolsch said:

Does the plastic pitch help players complete 5 yard passes, beat the first man with a cross and not defend like a couple of dads making up the numbers at a 7 a side game with their teenage kids?

It helps stop anyone play decent football on that pitch. Just make it a battle (which Livi are good at , fair play) 

[afc_blockhead]

40 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

They were 8th in the away table last season, only losing 9 of 16 matches. They're currently 5th for away games this season.

It's complete pish peddled almost exclusively by fans of bigger clubs desperate to explain why a wee diddy club gets results they can't.

Well they dont get "more of the results my team cant" so thats an odd point.

3 away wins in 2 years (regardless of all the draws) would hardly have been top 6 form would it?! 

[RandomGuy.]

2 minutes ago, afc_blockhead said:

3 away wins in 2 years (regardless of all the draws) would hardly have been top 6 form would it?! 

Well they're in the top 6 so it literally is.

[afc_blockhead]

3 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Well they're in the top 6 so it literally is.

Theyve won more away games this season than the previous 2 so you are arguing a different point. 

This season they are a better team than before. The awful pitch they have kept them up the past 2 seasons.

Also Scottish Footballs quality can be poor full stop but games on the plastic pitches are always awful. Wonder why

[afc_blockhead]

10 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Well they're in the top 6 so it literally is.

Also stats man yes they finished 8th on away form last season. 3 points better than the worst team! Home they were 3rd best just ahead of Aberdeen. 

Funny just how different those records are.

Season before 4th best home form in the league and worst away.

Funny that 

[welldaft]

3 minutes ago, afc_blockhead said:

Theyve won more away games this season than the previous 2 so you are arguing a different point. 

This season they are a better team than before. The awful pitch they have kept them up the past 2 seasons.

Also Scottish Footballs quality can be poor full stop but games on the plastic pitches are always awful. Wonder why

I am with afc_blockhead on this argument. 

Grass pitches are generally in bad nick at this time of the season but I would still rather that than a smooth plastic pitch. 

I used to go to Accies and Livi away every season and I could struggle to remember a good game even if we managed to get points. We are no great shakes but every time you could tell Motherwell players were struggling on the plastic surface. Struggling to control the ball, to judge the bounce of the ball and to judge weight of pass. I know we are not doing much better at that this season on grass pitches before any smart ass....

I don’t go now and will not pay for PPV for plastic pitches. 

I hope it is one of Hamilton, Killie and Livi for the drop simply as it is one less carpet in the top flight ! 

[arab_joe]

1 hour ago, mishtergrolsch said:

This all just highlights how terrible a job RN and TA have done building the squad and this is why I have alot of sympathy for MM and zero time for Asghar. How many central midfielders have we got? Harkes, Powers, King, Butcher, Fuchs, Pawlett. Thats 6 for 2 or 3 first team slots maximum.

Over £4 millions pounds a season for this lot. Let that sink in.

These are the two major points that appear to be regularly overlooked by Arabs - Mellon has inherited a bloated, unbalanced squad that is largely devoid of Premiership-level quality, and he is hamstrung by a top-6 wage bill.  

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

Livi fans will be along shortly, but the plastic pitch argument put forward by @arab_joe sort of falls apart when you look at those who have them in the top flight.

Hamilton would have been relegated years ago, were it not for their home advantage.  Away from home, they're an absolute embarrassment.

1 hour ago, afc_blockhead said:

2018/19 - Livi won 32 of 46 points at home (1 away league win all season)

2019/20 - Livi won 28 of 39 points at home (2 away league wins all season)

The pitch at Livi clearly has helped them stay up in the past 2 seasons. Whilst not playing on it they won 3 (away) games in the league in 2 seasons! 

2019/20 - Livi finished 5th with 8 home wins, teams in 3rd and 4th both had fewer.  Killie finished 8th with 6 home wins, teams in 6th and 7th both had fewer. 

2018/2019 - Livi finished 9th with 10 home wins, teams in 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th all had fewer.

Fair play to them all, they have an advantage over the other teams in the league and are using it to their gain.  Fans that pretend there is no correlation are, in my eyes, a bit odd.

[Tannadeechee]

According to reports Wigan are looking at Edwards.

[ArabianKnight]

Wouldn't be surprised to see a couple moving on last minute today and a couple coming in now that wages have been freed up. 

Not Benji or Shankland moving either. 

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, arab_joe said:

Hamilton would have been relegated years ago, were it not for their home advantage.  Away from home, they're an absolute embarrassment.

They picked up a whole 3 more points at home than away last season.

1 more win at home than away in 18/19, and the exact same in 17/18. In both these seasons they finished higher up the away table than home.

Its just lazy bollocks from fans who are frankly jealous of what Livingston are doing. 

Dundee United have a higher % of points won at home than Livingston this season. Presumably this doesn't fit your whole schtick about Livingston relying on home form though.

[RandomGuy.]