George Floyd/Black Lives Matter Protests

[vikingTON]

9 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

 

Casually discounting the racism experienced by black athletes just because "THEY'RE AMERICAN AND ENGLISH" and saying that their chosen form of protest is somehow less legitimate than others because "THEY'RE AMERICAN AND ENGLISH" says more about you than it does about them or me.

I'll leave aside the rest of your posturing for the nonsense that it is, as it confirms why your multi-year stint on my Ignore Posters list will be upheld shortly.

Two minutes ago you were squealing about people 'punching down' against the oppressed in society by not approving the knee gesture; now you concede that it is selected and used by, erm, professional athletes rather than a collective symbol for the downtrodden at all. The idea that some fat England fan in Middlesbrough of all places gets to 'punch down' at professional footballers is beyond hilarious. 

A dung protest with no coherent goals chosen by a set of athletes is not the sacred tenet of the global anti-racism movement. If that's the hill that Anglosphere liberals choose to die on then good luck with that. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by vikingTON

[Ad Lib]

7 minutes ago, virginton said:

I'll leave aside the rest of your posturing for the nonsense that it is, as it confirms why your multi-year stint on my Ignore Posters list will be upheld shortly.

It can't be much of an Ignore Posters list if you take people off it/reply to them every time they post anyway, champ.

Quote

Two minutes ago you were squealing about people 'punching down' against the oppressed in society by not approving the knee gesture; now you concede that it is selected and used by, erm, professional athletes rather than a collective symbol for the downtrodden at all. The idea that some fat England fan in Middlesbrough of all places gets to 'punch down' at professional footballers is beyond hilarious. 

In the context of racism, a fat England fan from Middlesbrough absolutely is punching down when he boos an anti-racist gesture conceived of by black people and popularised as a symbol of support for the struggle for racial equality. Black professional sportspeople don't cease to be victims of racism just because they're successful and rich.

ETA: besides, Colin Kaepernick was using his profile as a prominent black man to highlight the institutional and systemic racism suffered by others in his community who are less fortunate than him. That is precisely what athletes like Raheem Sterling and Marcus Rashford are doing now. And they are to be applauded for that. They are not doing something of which their own communities disapprove; on the contrary, they see the way they have visibly co-opted the support of their white team-mates to this cause as a #GoodThing.

Quote

A dung protest with no coherent goals chosen by a set of athletes is not the sacred tenet of the global anti-racism movement. If that's the hill that Anglosphere liberals choose to die on then good luck with that. 

It doesn't have to be a sacred tenet for those uneasy about its aims and methods to prioritise improving its aims and methods, rather than aligning themselves with actual racists on the terraces.

Once again, if:

(a) being able to boo something because you don't agree with it or it makes you feel uncomfortable

is more important to you than

(b) avoiding emulating the public actions of racists or showing solidarity for people who want to make a symbolic stance against racism

then you are part of the problem and complicit in institutional racism.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Ad Lib

[vikingTON]

3 minutes ago, Pato said:

VT would totally cut about in an All Lives Matter T-shirt if he was American

Between this and rooting for monkey chants at games it's probably time that you sat this one out for a while champ. 

[vikingTON]

10 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

It can't be much of an Ignore Posters list if you take people off it/reply to them every time they post anyway, champ.

One exchange over several years is probably close to 99.5% effectiveness. And once your ridiculous posturing is dismantled again here, it'll be 99.5% for the 2020s as well. 

Quote

In the context of racism, a fat England fan from Middlesbrough absolutely is punching down when he boos an anti-racist gesture conceived of by black people and popularised as a symbol of support for the struggle for racial equality. Black professional sportspeople don't cease to be victims of racism just because they're successful and rich.

Except that race is not the singular context by which 'punching down' can be understood in any coherent way. 

If it were 'rich white club owners' or 'rich, white blazers in the FA' who were opposing professional footballers' protest then that would indeed be a case of 'punching down' against black professional athletes in a racial context. Which was the case with Kaepernick and the NFL.

A spectator has no such power or influence because authority, wealth and (overlapping the former) class are also part of the power structures in society. Anyone who views Terry (53) from Redcar as being higher in society's power relationship than English international footballers is a moron, quite frankly. 

Quote

It doesn't have to be a sacred tenet for those uneasy about its aims and methods to prioritise improving its aims and methods, rather than aligning themselves with actual racists on the terraces.

Spectators at a football game are not compelled to become activists for change/agents of racial oppression by virtue of their attendance. Sit down. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

8 minutes ago, Pato said:

threading a rhetorical needle with your big sausage fingers the day aye

^^^ word salad

[SANTAN]

#takethekneeScotland is trending on Twitter. Interesting to see the likes of Laurence Fox and Darren Grimes cheering on Scotland's decision. 

Reading the hashtag it doesn't seem like many people have any takes on racism or equal rights they just seem fussed about how Scotland will look if they don't do it. Worried that they'll look bad rather than worried about racism in Scotland, all getting a bit South Park esque for me. 

[Ad Lib]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

One exchange over several years is probably close to 99.5% effectiveness. And once your ridiculous posturing is dismantled again here, it'll be 99.5% for the 2020s as well.

“One exchange”

There have been several. You must see exchanges like you see race.

1 minute ago, virginton said:

Except that race is not the singular context by which 'punching down' can be understood in any coherent way.

I never claimed it was. But in the context of anti-racism protest, white people attacking anti-racism protests is always punching down, whatever the other socioeconomic factors at play.

1 minute ago, virginton said:

If it were 'rich white club owners' or 'rich, white blazers in the FA' who were opposing professional footballers' protest then that would indeed be a case of 'punching down' against black professional athletes in a racial context. Which was the case with Kaepernick and the NFL 

A spectator has no such power or influence because authority, wealth and (overlapping the former) class are also part of the power structures in society. Anyone who views Terry (53) from Redcar as being higher in society's power relationship than English international footballers is a moron, quite frankly.

But Terry isn’t booing a gesture that simply calls for an international footballer not to be discriminated against because of his race. He is booing a gesture that calls for all ethnic minorities, including those with considerably less social and economic power than Terry to be treated without discrimination in our society.

Your classism of low expectations is noted, however.

1 minute ago, virginton said:

Spectators at a football game are not compelled to become activists for change/agents of racial oppression by virtue of their attendance. Sit down. 

No one is saying they are.

Standing motionless in a stadium while football players take a stand against racism isn’t someone “being compelled to become an activist”.

Booing an anti-racism demonstration, on the other hand, is the textbook definition of political activism.

[SANTAN]

Just now, Pato said:

I think a big part of it is Scotland markets itself as a progressive, open and tolerant place, so to actually rank significantly lower than *breathes in sharply* England on this issue is not helpful to that image. It's a bit of a shock to the system for people who are fully bought into that narrative.

And I think we would both agree based on discussions in the politics section that I don't like this "marketing" and think it can lead to naive Scottish people, probably overlaps with the ones like Sandy that don't think Scotland have any blame for colonial history and that this can all be attributed to the English. At first when i was reading some of the tweets and the shock i thought -Good, this might wake some people up to the idea Scotland isn't some progressive Utopia- and then within 2 minutes I've seen it explained away as "Rangers fans"...

[Ad Lib]

3 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

And I think we would both agree based on discussions in the politics section that I don't like this "marketing" and think it can lead to naive Scottish people, probably overlaps with the ones like Sandy that don't think Scotland have any blame for colonial history and that this can all be attributed to the English. At first when i was reading some of the tweets and the shock i thought -Good, this might wake some people up to the idea Scotland isn't some progressive Utopia- and then within 2 minutes I've seen it explained away as "Rangers fans"...

While this is undoubtedly true, on a purely objective assessment a significant proportion of them have "55" badges in their profile pictures.

Rangers fans should pause to reflect whether the continued existence of their football club helps or hinders efforts to eradicate racism in Scotland.

[SANTAN]

4 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

While this is undoubtedly true, on a purely objective assessment a significant proportion of them have "55" badges in their profile pictures.

Rangers fans should pause to reflect whether the continued existence of their football club helps or hinders efforts to eradicate racism in Scotland.

I think that what happened to Rangers in Europe last season lead to more awareness on the subject. Some people that would have normally been ambivalent towards such incidents found themselves annoyed because it happened to a Rangers player, of course it's not good reasoning for why they care but I think it definitely would have educated a few people on some things. The OF game with the United stand and Brown offering support to Kamara during the pre game warm up was the sort of gesture which will have woken some people up on both sides. Even if a lot of it was just people tribally supporting their group I'd like to think there was a drip down of education on the matter and that a lot of younger Rangers fans will feel more connected to anti-racism. 

[Ad Lib]

1 minute ago, Stormzy said:

I think that what happened to Rangers in Europe last season lead to more awareness on the subject. Some people that would have normally been ambivalent towards such incidents found themselves annoyed because it happened to a Rangers player, of course it's not good reasoning for why they care but I think it definitely would have educated a few people on some things. The OF game with the United stand and Brown offering support to Kamara during the pre game warm up was the sort of gesture which will have woken some people up on both sides. Even if a lot of it was just people tribally supporting their group I'd like to think there was a drip down of education on the matter and that a lot of younger Rangers fans will feel more connected to anti-racism. 

You'll forgive me if I'm sceptical about moves towards toleration and enlightenment while thousands of Rangers fans continue to sing gleefully about being up to their knees in the blood of Catholic Irish Nationalists in the city centre of Glasgow during a title celebration, with many even throwing in for good measure a song about how they would rather be a Pakistani than Catholic.

[SANTAN]

1 minute ago, Ad Lib said:

You'll forgive me if I'm sceptical about moves towards toleration and enlightenment while thousands of Rangers fans continue to sing gleefully about being up to their knees in the blood of Catholic Irish Nationalists in the city centre of Glasgow during a title celebration, with many even throwing in for good measure a song about how they would rather be a Pakistani than Catholic.

Remain sceptical all you like, I'd imagine you'd be critical no matter what the club did to try and combat whatever social justice issue is the highlight of the day. On the second point I saw a video of one person singing the "Pakistani" line, not sure it's fair to say it was many people unless I've missed that. 

Either way this is getting very close to what I was saying is a problem before, batting away Scotlands issues with racism with "Rangers fans" is predictable and counter productive for the wider issue.

Do you think Scotland not taking the knee helps or hinders efforts to eradicate racism in Scotland? 

[Ad Lib]

4 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Remain sceptical all you like, I'd imagine you'd be critical no matter what the club did to try and combat whatever social justice issue is the highlight of the day.

If they dissolved themselves I'd applaud their stance as I think that would significantly help reduce racism in Scotland.

4 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

On the second point I saw a video of one person singing the "Pakistani" line, not sure it's fair to say it was many people unless I've missed that. 

Three singing, several others dancing along in approval.

If the response of other supporters in the vicinity isn't "f**k off with that racist patter" then they are complicit.

4 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Either way this is getting very close to what I was saying is a problem before, batting away Scotlands issues with racism with "Rangers fans" is predictable and counter productive for the wider issue.

Do you think Scotland not taking the knee helps or hinders efforts to eradicate racism in Scotland? 

I think Scotland not taking the knee at kick-off against England in a small but significant way hinders efforts to eradicate racism in Scotland.

In the other games, if (having widely consulted those players involved and affected by racism, and other anti-racism campaigns and organisations) they and their opponents decide another symbol better communicates an anti-racism message, that is fine. More power to them.

But the England team, a team with far greater ethnic minority representation than Scotland's, has come to a clear view that the knee is the symbol they wish to use. It is at best a really bad look for Scottish players not to show solidarity with that considered position and instead to stand there looking slightly gormless pretending that "standing" in that context is understood as an equivalent stance against racism. The reality is that, when England take the knee, doing another gesture of your own when standing up against racism will be understood as, and is in essence, pandering to snowflakes who feel threatened by the sight of 22 grown men kneeling.

It is a completely different kettle of fish if, for example, someone like Wilfred Zaha, who is and has been a victim of racial discrimination, is in a team and has reached a view that a different form of protest is more meaningful and asks his team-mates to do that instead. But let's not pretend that Ryan Christie or Grant Hanley know better about how to protest against racism than Raheem Sterling or Marcus Rashford. And let's not disingenuously hypothesise that Che Adams has asked all his team-mates not to take the knee when he has dutifully done so at every single Southampton match he's started this season.

[Mr Waldo]

Another great read. 

[pandarilla]

Christ this thread has exploded again.

Can i ask those posters who are against the taking the knee campaign - would either of you boo it if you attended a match at the moment?

I don't think either of you would but just want to double check.

[Highland Capital]

I wonder if any black England fans were booing...

[Ad Lib]

7 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

Christ this thread has exploded again.

Can i ask those posters who are against the taking the knee campaign - would either of you boo it if you attended a match at the moment?

I don't think either of you would but just want to double check.

And perhaps just as pertinently, if they think it's an "empty gesture" like other campaigns, do and would they boo those too? 

Or do they shut the f**k up during because even if they don't agree with the particular campaign's means and clarity they know fine well that the implications of booing aren't simply confined to "I think there are better ways of achieving your goal" or "I think your campaign is unclear and ineffectual". Because they know fine well that booing really means, and is taken to mean "I disagree with your goals" and/or "this issue doesn't deserve attention to be brought to it".

[BigDoddyKane]

I think its just a box to be ticked now its been an empty gesture for a while but booing it isnt right either

Scotland should of just done it for this tournament and then after that dropped it, if it has any value left at all then this tournament is probably the last time it will

 

[dirty dingus]

 

Steve Clarke

I am aware that some individuals and groups have sought to politicise or misrepresent the Scotland National Team position on taking a stand against racism and all forms of discriminatory behaviour in our UEFA EURO 2020 matches and, in particular, for our visit to Wembley.

It is incumbent on me as the Head Coach to reiterate that we have done so from our first FIFA World Cup qualifiers and that it has been done in conjunction with clubs across Scottish football including Rangers and Celtic. 

I explained in March the rationale behind the squad decision: not only is it consistent with the collective approach from Scottish football above but the purpose of taking the knee, to raise awareness and help eradicate racism in football and society, has been diluted and undermined by the continuation of abuse towards players.

For the avoidance of doubt: me, my coaching staff, my players and my backroom team take a stand against racism and all forms of unacceptable and discriminatory behaviour across society. We do so to raise awareness of the ongoing problem but also as a reminder to those who have the ultimate power and responsibility to implement meaningful change. 

In light of divisive and inaccurate comments being perpetuated by individuals and groups, whose views we denounce in the strongest terms, we have reflected today as a group. We remain committed to our principles of taking a stand but we must also be unequivocal in condemning the opportunistic false narrative being presented by some.

We have therefore agreed that we will show solidarity with our counterparts in England, many of whom are team-mates of our own players, and who have found themselves on the receiving end of abuse from fans in recent international matches. 

We will continue to take a stand – together, as one – for our matches at Hampden Park. For our match at Wembley, we will stand against racism and kneel against ignorance. 

Andy Robertson

Our position was – and remains – that the focus must be on meaningful change to fight discrimination in football and wider society.

In Scotland, the football family has stood against racism all season. It was our collective view that the national team would do the same.

Our stance is that everyone, players, fans, teams, clubs, federations, governing bodies and governments must do more. Meaningful action is needed if meaningful change is to occur.

But it is also clear, given the events around the England national team, taking the knee in this tournament matters as a symbol of solidarity.

For this reason, we have collectively decided to again take the knee as a team for the fixture against England at Wembley Stadium.

The Scotland team stands against racism but we will kneel against ignorance and in solidarity on June 18th.

 

Knee getting taken at Wembley.

Edited June 11, 2021 by dirty dingus

[Ad Lib]

Good. That's the response we needed to see.