Marten Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 On 07/06/2020 at 22:37, classof2010 said: Nothing wrong with colt teams Germany spain Holland are fine examples of where it works well Nothing right with it. And in The Netherlands it's not exactly working well to put it mildly... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hague Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 15 hours ago, Marten said: Nothing right with it. And in The Netherlands it's not exactly working well to put it mildly... if its not working how come 8 of the ajax players in the 2017 europa league final came from the jong ajax side? also a fair amount of the squad that reached last seasons champions league s/f also played for young ajax in the eerste divisie? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marten Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 27 minutes ago, hague said: if its not working how come 8 of the ajax players in the 2017 europa league final came from the jong ajax side? also a fair amount of the squad that reached last seasons champions league s/f also played for young ajax in the eerste divisie? I've already made a post about it. And very few of those 2 Ajax teams actually played more than just a handful of games in Jong Ajax so that's hardly making any difference. Also, it's not as if Ajax never had talented youth players coming through before colt teams got introduced in The Netherlands... Colt teams will be terrible for the lower leagues and even considering that plan would be absolutely criminal. 20 hours ago, Marten said: I posted my opinion about colt teams on here before, having experienced them in The Netherlands myself, but unfortunately this has come back again so here is my take on it again. In The Netherlands, the colt teams are very much hated by fans of lower division teams. They rarely take any fans to away games and at home games they don't get high attendances. In the first season attendances were half-decent but after that the novelty factor wore off and they fell. The record low attendance in the 2nd tier was at a game between FC Twente Colts and PSV Colts with an attendance of 72. That 72 included all comps, sponsors, journalists etc., so the number of paying fans in attendance was probably in single figures. The effectiveness of these teams is much debated as few players from those teams actually ended up in their club's first team. The really big talents tend to go straight in the first team or get loaned out to a top flight team. Plenty of clubs have pulled their colts team from the pyramid since it started, there are now only 10 left even though there are 34 full-time teams. Some big clubs like Feyenoord even never bothered with a colt team in the pyramid and their youth set up is very strong. The Dutch youth system has a very good reputation but that's due to an extensive network of coaching, training, scouting and youth partnerships going all the way down to lower non-league. Big names like Robben and Van Nistelrooy came through the youth system of a small non-league club before eventually being picked up by professional clubs. Out of the extensive Dutch youth system, the "colt team" system is arguably the least effective and most controversial part. If Scottish football is really serious about youth development, improvements should start with coaching, training etc. Even considering colt teams should only be done once all those aspects have improved massively. Just as a clarification: in the Dutch pyramid colt teams are only allowed for the 34 full-time clubs. They can't get higher than the 2nd tier or the tier below their first team if the first team aren't top flight. They can't get into cup tournaments with first teams. Colts of non-league clubs actually do join cup tournaments and are not in the league, which sometimes results in odd situations of a first team playing against their own colts. I once played in one of such games myself when I played football (I was in the first team), it was weird... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hague Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Marten said: I've already made a post about it. And very few of those 2 Ajax teams actually played more than just a handful of games in Jong Ajax so that's hardly making any difference. Also, it's not as if Ajax never had talented youth players coming through before colt teams got introduced in The Netherlands... Colt teams will be terrible for the lower leagues and even considering that plan would be absolutely criminal. feijenoord never entered a team because at the time they could not afford it and ended up merging their u21 side with excelsior. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marten Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, hague said: feijenoord never entered a team because at the time they could not afford it and ended up merging their u21 side with excelsior. I'm an Excelsior fan so I know very well what Feyenoord did and not soon after the introduction of colt teams they terminated the link with us. Since then there have been a few opportunities for them to enter and they never bothered. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) Supports the third biggest team in Rotterdam, moves to Dundee and supports the third biggest team. Guess it all makes sense. Think people need to look beyond a petty FTOF angle on this issue and ponder whether having some colt teams around is really so very different from having BSC, Caledonian Braves, Rossvale, Gartcairn, St Cadoc's and Bonnyton around? Think in both scenarios the key should be that there needs to be a separate home ground in a reasonable timeframe after entry. For colt teams, there needs to be a stable first team squad throughout the season, so it isn't treated like a reserve team that would take some games more seriously than others. Was the bigger issue with Feyenoord and Excelsior not that Feyenoord turned Excelsior into their B team in all but name at one point? Hijacking other clubs is something that should be avoided. Edited June 13, 2020 by LongTimeLurker -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanius Mullarkey Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 If you think FTOF is a petty angle then I think you’ve seriously, and I quote GW Bush, “misunderestimated” the feeling among most fans in Scottish football. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkey said: If you think FTOF is a petty angle then I think you’ve seriously, and I quote GW Bush, “misunderestimated” the feeling among most fans in Scottish football. In surveys most fans of Scottish football support one or other of the OF and there's nothing hugely unusual about a small European country being dominated in spectator interest terms like that by two or three clubs or rightly or wrongly about many of those same people also following a more local "wee team". Not sure why people don't grasp that the colt teams issue doesn't have to just be about the Old Firm. That's the angle that makes a lot of the backlash petty. Would a Hamilton Accies U-20 team in the WoS or LL be any more badly supported than Royal Albert or Caledonian Braves? If they played somewhere like Strathaven that doesn't currently have a team at that sort of level where would the harm be? Worth bearing in mind that the most likely colt team to happen any time soon is ICT in the Highland League. Think that's preferable to having Fort William hijacked for that purpose Feyenoord and Excelsior style. Edited June 13, 2020 by LongTimeLurker 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Previously on 'Whut?': Edinburgh South shouldn't be playing in Dalkeith, and BSC Glasgow shouldn't in Alloa. They should be playing where they have their community links. 29 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: Would a Hamilton Accies U-20 team in the WoS or LL be any more badly supported than Royal Albert or Caledonian Braves? If they played somewhere like Strathaven that doesn't currently have a team at that sort of level where would the harm be? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bestsinceslicebread Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) 56 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: Previously on 'Whut?': Edinburgh South shouldn't be playing in Dalkeith, and BSC Glasgow shouldn't in Alloa. They should be playing where they have their community links. Disagree with that totally. In an ideal world, yes it would be great for them to play where they are based but circumstances happened that takes them away from the community but in the hope to return. You cant just shut a team down because they have been forced out of their area, or mis-managed or just the wrong decision makes them move or a ground sold from under them. I cant remember but what happened to Clyde who played at Shawfield, why did they move\?, I'm sure there's many examples of these reasons but is something they just have to get on with until they are abale to return Edited June 13, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanius Mullarkey Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 If anyone genuinely thinks that the OF having u18 teams in the lower leagues is anything other than both clubs flexing their muscles for their own gain whilst stating that “see, Scottish fitba would be dead without us”, “the OF pound”, “thousands of fans putting money into communities across Scotland” are fucking delusional. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) Yet another attempt from FWF to start an argument just for the sake of it. I put the guy on block because he wastes my time over and over with this stuff and has the crass #$%^ing nerve to turn around and try to tell me what I really said in first place when I try to clear up the confusion he deliberately creates. Just so yet another thread doesn't get derailed by this, my point in an earlier post was that youth clubs and colt teams should have their own grounds in a reasonable timeframe if they want to enter semi-pro level leagues. The OF colts would probably wind up in Milngavie and Lennoxtown. Neither of those communities have teams of their own at this sort of level so that's not treading on anyone's toes and could be an angle for generating a local community angle for the colt team in future. 25 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkey said: If anyone genuinely thinks that the OF having u18 teams in the lower leagues is anything other than both clubs flexing their muscles for their own gain whilst stating that “see, Scottish fitba would be dead without us”, “the OF pound”, “thousands of fans putting money into communities across Scotland” are fucking delusional. Meanwhile ICT is the most likely one to actually happen and they are doing it for reasons that have hee haw to do with any of that. Why not try to separate the colt team concept from your hatred of the OF and think rationally about the player development issues that are involved? Edited June 13, 2020 by LongTimeLurker 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanius Mullarkey Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 What player development issues are causing a huge failing of Scottish football that will be cured by the inclusion of OF colt teams exactly? The “OF pound, you cannae survive without us” arrogance is evident by the fact that they’ll “buy away tickets” for these games (Sevco cheque in the post?) A fucking nonsense from start to finish as has been shown by many many club chairmen and fans up and down the country. Most fans support the OF though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Why do ICT want a colt team in the HL if there isn't a player development issue that they think needs to be fixed? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanius Mullarkey Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: Why do ICT want a colt team in the HL if there isn't a player development issue that they think needs to be fixed? You tell me. why are they not advocating for a colt team in SPFL league 2? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 14 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: Yet another attempt from FTF to start an argument just for the sake of it. I put the guy on block because he wastes my time over and over with this stuff and has the crass #$%^ing nerve to turn around and try to tell me what I really said in first place when I try to clear up the confusion he deliberately creates. You're the one pretend swearing to yourself. I'm not arguing with anyone. Hamilton Academical have their own 3g/4g pitch(?) and have no reason to be heading to another town that can develop its own team. Just now, LongTimeLurker said: Why do ICT want a colt team in the HL if there isn't a player development issue that they think needs to be fixed? Main point i've heard is that they don't like the mid week travel that would come with the SPFL Reserve Leagues. The Highland League offers a structured league regionally and without the same midweek travel concerns. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Why does tier 4 as opposed to tier 5 entry make a critical difference in your opinion? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glensmad Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 I cant remember but what happened to Clyde who played at Shawfield, why did they move...Clyde's lease at Shawfield had expired and the Greyhound Association wanted to bring in speedway. That meant widening the track which made the pitch too small to play professional football. So Clyde had to find a new home and ground shared with Partick Thistle for a while before moving on again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Key thing is Clyde did eventually find their own new home where they could generate future community links. Reserve teams playing at the first team's stadium belong in reserve leagues, and youth clubs that always need to rent somebody else's park belong in youth leagues. To play WoS sort of level and above having secure ongoing tenure over your own enclosed ground* should be mandatory after a few years grace period to provide some flexibility for Clyde type scenarios. * To avoid the usual tangents. Yes Clydebank and Yoker was a sensible common sense solution. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ped Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 If you find long term tenure then its still not there own ground and circumstances mean they could lose there tenure so by your stance no team should be allowed in until they own there own ground 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.