Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Forest_Fifer]

We need to have all big sides playing colt teams in the lower leagues.
This is about making sure Scottish players develop.
They do it in Croatia, and they have reached a World Cup Final, and just knocked us out of the EURO 2020.  
They do it Germany, Spain, France, the Netherlands and Portugal.
Why are they more patriotic than us? Why do they care more about developing young players there? Why are there so many people in Scotland who want to see their own country not produce top players.
I cannot understand what people’s problem with having colt teams in the lower divisions.
Aberdeen, Motherwell, Dundee, Dundee United, Hearts and Hibs should also have colt teams in the lower leagues.
For me the priority of Scottish football should be;
1. To have a strong international side.
2. To have club sides that do well in Europe.
 
This way the Celtic and Rangers can buy in great foreign and experienced players but still develop great Scottish players, regardless. It is the perfect solution.
 
Why do some traitorous clowns think it is more important that a part time team finishes 4 or 5 places higher in the league than Scotland producing great player?
They would rather the Scotland team got slaughtered than their precious part time team 4 places lower in the lower divisions.
 
I cannot see why playing a b team is so terrible. When most part time clubs do not mind Celtic or Rangers sending a virtual B team to play a friendly or cup game.
It is just conservative nonsense, from fans who are offended by an idea that helps Scotland produce better players.
The point in having strong grassroots is to have a strong national team. There is no point in having strong grassroots but a rubbish national team.

Don't you have a bridge that needs guarding?

[Jack Burton]

We need to have all big sides playing colt teams in the lower leagues.
This is about making sure Scottish players develop.
They do it in Croatia, and they have reached a World Cup Final, and just knocked us out of the EURO 2020.  
They do it Germany, Spain, France, the Netherlands and Portugal.
Why are they more patriotic than us? Why do they care more about developing young players there? Why are there so many people in Scotland who want to see their own country not produce top players.
I cannot understand what people’s problem with having colt teams in the lower divisions.
Aberdeen, Motherwell, Dundee, Dundee United, Hearts and Hibs should also have colt teams in the lower leagues.
For me the priority of Scottish football should be;
1. To have a strong international side.
2. To have club sides that do well in Europe.
 
This way the Celtic and Rangers can buy in great foreign and experienced players but still develop great Scottish players, regardless. It is the perfect solution.
 
Why do some traitorous clowns think it is more important that a part time team finishes 4 or 5 places higher in the league than Scotland producing great player?
They would rather the Scotland team got slaughtered than their precious part time team 4 places lower in the lower divisions.
 
I cannot see why playing a b team is so terrible. When most part time clubs do not mind Celtic or Rangers sending a virtual B team to play a friendly or cup game.
It is just conservative nonsense, from fans who are offended by an idea that helps Scotland produce better players.
The point in having strong grassroots is to have a strong national team. There is no point in having strong grassroots but a rubbish national team.

Celtic's first signing for their B team is an English man, not very patriotic is it?

There is a huge difference between playing a friendly and league games. It would make a mockery of the lower leagues with the smaller teams aiming to win the league and the Colts not caring as long as they develop some players. It is also not the purpose of the lower leagues to help develop players for the Old Firm.

If this really is all about player development and for the national team then require all top flight clubs to play at least 4 Scottish under 21's in their first XI. The young players would get to play with and against the best players in the league setup while still staying at their club.

[stm]

Imagine the scenes when, for example, East Kilbride, as LL Champs, falter in SPFL play off losing to last minute winner.  

 

The following day, it's announced that two teams who they've just played against in glorified friendlies during league season take up places in the division they're trying to get into cos they've bribed way in.  Still, at least they got a few thousand quid out of it for a year.

[FairWeatherFan]

With all automatic promotions kicking in, and no relegations from the SPFL. Part of the proposal would allow further 'B' teams to buy their way into Tier 5.

Since it's meant to be doing the rounds for a while I wonder how many of the LL clubs had a sight of it before voting on letting the OF Colts in this season.

EDIT: Not to mention the bit about reviewing SPFL entry requirements.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by FairWeatherFan

[10menwent2mow]

Andy Robertson is a prime example of how to progress. With a colt system he'd probably have been kept on at Celtic until he was 19/20 then released. By the time he was 20, he'd signed for Hull.

You look at our Euro 2020 squad, Gallagher, Robertson, O'Donnell all released by Celtic but went on to progress from the lower leagues. Marshall, Tierney, Mcginn, Mcgregor, Christie, Gordon, Taylor, Armstrong, Turnbull, Nisbet, Fraser, Patterson, Gilmour, Hendry, Forrest and McKenna all came through our game.

Look at the list of clubs those guys have played for at youth level. Celtic, St Mirren, ICT, Hearts, Killie, Dundee U, Motherwell, Partick, Aberdeen, Rangers, Dundee. The thing most of them have in common is that they were in first teams (mainly in the top flight) as teenagers, keeping them in OF colt teams until 19-20-21 and playing against league 1&2 teams is not going to develop us better players, it's just going to mean that instead of Celtic and Rangers having to pay for a Greg Taylor or a David Turnbull, thus helping the Scottish game in general, they'll already have them on their books.

It will also not make Rangers or Celtic anymore likely to give youth a chance if there is a quick fix they can buy from abroad for £1m.

[Che Dail]

4 minutes ago, 10menwent2mow said:

Andy Robertson is a prime example of how to progress. With a colt system he'd probably have been kept on at Celtic until he was 19/20 then released. By the time he was 20, he'd signed for Hull.

You look at our Euro 2020 squad, Gallagher, Robertson, O'Donnell all released by Celtic but went on to progress from the lower leagues. Marshall, Tierney, Mcginn, Mcgregor, Christie, Gordon, Taylor, Armstrong, Turnbull, Nisbet, Fraser, Patterson, Gilmour, Hendry, Forrest and McKenna all came through our game.

Look at the list of clubs those guys have played for at youth level. Celtic, St Mirren, ICT, Hearts, Killie, Dundee U, Motherwell, Partick, Aberdeen, Rangers, Dundee. The thing most of them have in common is that they were in first teams (mainly in the top flight) as teenagers, keeping them in OF colt teams until 19-20-21 and playing against league 1&2 teams is not going to develop us better players, it's just going to mean that instead of Celtic and Rangers having to pay for a Greg Taylor or a David Turnbull, thus helping the Scottish game in general, they'll already have them on their books.

It will also not make Rangers or Celtic anymore likely to give youth a chance if there is a quick fix they can buy from abroad for £1m.

In the last 10 matches, the national team with some of the players you've listed has delivered: LDLWDWDDLL =  equivalent to10 pts.  In most league tables this form at 1 point per game would mean relegation zone.  The two wins were against Luxemburg and the Faroe Islands.

The league system and the clubs might be delivering some 'hope' for the national team, but not really any success when compared to other similarly small and wealthy countries such as Croatia, Denmark, Wales etc. 

Here's an example of how the young Dutch players have progressed.  All are full internationals, albeit not all were named in the squad for the Euros. The 'Yong' or B teams are in the Eerste Divisie (Tier 2).

Ryan Gravenberch (19); 44 Ajax B then 42 Ajax

Jurrien Timber (20); 59 Ajax B then 21 Ajax

Matthhijs de Ligt (21); 17 Ajax B then 77 Ajax + 56 Juventus

Owen Vijndal (21); 59 Ajax B then 21 Ajax

Cody Gakpo (22); 26 PSV B then 65 PSV

Donyell Malen (22); 22 PSV B then 81 PSV

Teun Koopmeiners (23); 25 AZ B then 114 AZ Alkmaar

Davy Klassen (28);  6 Ajax B then 126 Ajax + Everton + W.Bremen + Ajax

Most of these guys featured for Netherlands at age groups u15 / u16/ u17 etc - all were retained in their club academy system, all have increased in value for their club, and all feature for the national side with potential to continue their development. Other than Klassen, they're 19-23 yr old with bright futures ahead.

It seems to be working, but no doubt our resident Dutch Nostradamus will explain why it is a disaster @Marten

 

[Marten]

4 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

It seems to be working, but no doubt our resident Dutch Nostradamus will explain why it is a disaster @Marten

 

Far more important is the fact that these players benefited from an integrated youth setup all over the country from the top right down to the grass roots. The surprise of the tournament on the Dutch team Denzel Dumfries has started at non-league level and used that system to develop as a player. He only got picked up by a professional side late & in a few years he went from non-league to PSV's starting XI.

But as pointed out before, the OF are not working on improving youth structures in Scotland as a whole. And neither are the SFA, whose job it should really be!

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

In the last 10 matches, the national team with some of the players you've listed has delivered: LDLWDWDDLL =  equivalent to10 pts.  In most league tables this form at 1 point per game would mean relegation zone.  The two wins were against Luxemburg and the Faroe Islands.

The league system and the clubs might be delivering some 'hope' for the national team, but not really any success when compared to other similarly small and wealthy countries such as Croatia, Denmark, Wales etc. 

Here's an example of how the young Dutch players have progressed.  All are full internationals, albeit not all were named in the squad for the Euros. The 'Yong' or B teams are in the Eerste Divisie (Tier 2).

Ryan Gravenberch (19); 44 Ajax B then 42 Ajax

Jurrien Timber (20); 59 Ajax B then 21 Ajax

Matthhijs de Ligt (21); 17 Ajax B then 77 Ajax + 56 Juventus

Owen Vijndal (21); 59 Ajax B then 21 Ajax

Cody Gakpo (22); 26 PSV B then 65 PSV

Donyell Malen (22); 22 PSV B then 81 PSV

Teun Koopmeiners (23); 25 AZ B then 114 AZ Alkmaar

Davy Klassen (28);  6 Ajax B then 126 Ajax + Everton + W.Bremen + Ajax

Most of these guys featured for Netherlands at age groups u15 / u16/ u17 etc - all were retained in their club academy system, all have increased in value for their club, and all feature for the national side with potential to continue their development. Other than Klassen, they're 19-23 yr old with bright futures ahead.

It seems to be working, but no doubt our resident Dutch Nostradamus will explain why it is a disaster @Marten

 

Working compared to what exactly? Are these players any better or worse than 5-10 years ago? You know when they World Cup finalists and 3rd place which is apparently the all important metric for judging 'B' teams success.

All those 'B' teams also play in the full time 2nd Tier. Whereas this proposal on the go, and the OF involvement in the LL will be capped playing against part-timers.

[Marten]

44 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

With all automatic promotions kicking in, and no relegations from the SPFL. Part of the proposal would allow further 'B' teams to buy their way into Tier 5.

Since it's meant to be doing the rounds for a while I wonder how many of the LL clubs had a sight of it before voting on letting the OF Colts in this season.

EDIT: Not to mention the bit about reviewing SPFL entry requirements.

 

This is showing complete disrespect to tier 6 feeder leagues and that's exactly why the OF joining the LL destroys the integrity of the pyramid. There are plenty of big EoSFL / WoSFL clubs who might have to work years to be able to get into the LL, only to see that chance getting smaller or the door shut because St. Mirren are happy to buy their colts in.

[david11]

4 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

It's a good example in that few of the Croat side have played in colt teams, in a system running in Croatia since 2015-16: an 18 year old at the outset would now be 22-23. A better example may be the Czech Republic, never quoted by exponents of B sides, as they have had colts in their leagues since 2001-02, and had no ex colt players in their team which has qualified above Scotland for the Euro knock out stages.

The Croatia team which beat Scotland had Livakovic (1 game in the Colt system) and Gvardiol (4 colt appearances). Make of that what you wish.

We're being told that the reason Scotland doesn't perform better in international tournaments is because there aren't B sides. Yet the example nations don't seem to bear that out. Those 5 appearances are what did it for Croatia? Or maybe it was Modric, Perisic and Kovacic. 

The players Scotland needs will be to good to ever play for the B sides: see Billy Gilmour. We need the nations biggest clubs to sign and play more Scottish players. How about instead of B sides in league 2 we institute a home grown requirement in the Premiership?

Eventually the OF will get the right set of hand outs for all the clubs. I actually think B sides may make it this time because if I read the proposal correctly, there won't be relegation from League 2 for a couple years? That may get the league 2 clubs on board. 

 

[Che Dail]

6 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Working compared to what exactly? Are these players any better or worse than 5-10 years ago? You know when they World Cup finalists and 3rd place which is apparently the all important metric for judging 'B' teams success.

All those 'B' teams also play in the full time 2nd Tier. Whereas this proposal on the go, and the OF involvement in the LL will be capped playing against part-timers.

Yes - I think Scotland can only sustain and only needs 2 professional leagues of FT players - and for B teams to have real value longer term, they would need to be in T2. 

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, david11 said:

We're being told that the reason Scotland doesn't perform better in international tournaments is because there aren't B sides. Yet the example nations don't seem to bear that out. Those 5 appearances are what did it for Croatia? Or maybe it was Modric, Perisic and Kovacic. 

The players Scotland needs will be to good to ever play for the B sides: see Billy Gilmour. We need the nations biggest clubs to sign and play more Scottish players. How about instead of B sides in league 2 we institute a home grown requirement in the Premiership?

Eventually the OF will get the right set of hand outs for all the clubs. I actually think B sides may make it this time because if I read the proposal correctly, there won't be relegation from League 2 for a couple years? That may get the league 2 clubs on board. 

 

They've learned from previous attempts. More money and longer term, with no relegation for the existing SPFL sides. In fact some SPFL sides will benefit with the increased 2nd and 3rd Tiers.

It's got more chance than previous. Which just means there needs to be a greater fan backlash than before. The SG bailed out Scottish Football with £10m in emergency funding to make up for playing BCD. With the complaint from clubs that it wasn't enough. If the fans are against this they have to show they are.

[10menwent2mow]

That's a fair point but is playing for Jong Ajax or Jong PSV better than playing for Motherwell or Dundee or Aberdeen.

Essentially all we are talking about here is making Rangers and Celtic even more all powerful than before. Would Ryan Christie have developed more as a player playing for Celtic colts against Brechin and Albion Rovers more than he did playing in Europe for Aberdeen? Would David Turnbull have been better in league 2 than playing first team football for Motherwell? It's frustrating enough for Scottish football when Rangers and Celtic hoover up all the best young talents and actually have to pay for them, can't see how it'll benefit anyone other than them by having them in their youth set ups all the way through.

[Che Dail]

10 minutes ago, Marten said:

Far more important is the fact that these players benefited from an integrated youth setup all over the country from the top right down to the grass roots. The surprise of the tournament on the Dutch team Denzel Dumfries has started at non-league level and used that system to develop as a player. He only got picked up by a professional side late & in a few years he went from non-league to PSV's starting XI.

But as pointed out before, the OF are not working on improving youth structures in Scotland as a whole. And neither are the SFA, whose job it should really be!

There is a clear pathway for children in Scotland all the way from 5-6yr old up to under 19s and a lot of good work done over the years by the SFA and grassroots clubs.  The apparent gap is an adequate transition from pro-youth to pro-adult football.    

You say Denzel Dumfries started at non-league level... so B teams have not yet caused the complete implosion of non-league football in the Netherlands, as per your predictions for Scotland?  

[Marten]

2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

There is a clear pathway for children in Scotland all the way from 5-6yr old up to under 19s and a lot of good work done over the years by the SFA and grassroots clubs.  The apparent gap is an adequate transition from pro-youth to pro-adult football.    

You say Denzel Dumfries started at non-league level... so B teams have not yet caused the complete implosion of non-league football in the Netherlands, as per your predictions for Scotland?  

Still there is a lot room for improvement in the Scottish system as I explained before. That includes better coaching, better facilities, better co-ordination across the country and so on. It's those issues on which countries like The Netherlands, Croatia and others (not just countries with colt teams!) are so far ahead. Let's start adressing them maybe

Colt teams are only in tiers 2 & 3 in the Netherlands, Dumfries came from lower down so he played in tiers unaffected by these disgraceful teams. They clearly had a negative impact on the remaining teams in tiers 2 & 3 though...

[Che Dail]

39 minutes ago, Marten said:

Still there is a lot room for improvement in the Scottish system as I explained before. That includes better coaching, better facilities, better co-ordination across the country and so on. It's those issues on which countries like The Netherlands, Croatia and others (not just countries with colt teams!) are so far ahead. Let's start adressing them maybe

Colt teams are only in tiers 2 & 3 in the Netherlands, Dumfries came from lower down so he played in tiers unaffected by these disgraceful teams. They clearly had a negative impact on the remaining teams in tiers 2 & 3 though...

Yes - I think a consistent 'national' approach to playing style and formation would help.  For example it almost goes without saying that Dutch teams right the way through the player pathway will adopt a 4-3-3 or variations thereof, always with an attitude towards attacking and going forward (that's just the way football is played).  I believe that was something Mark Wotte was trying to implement, but found it difficult getting buy-in from others who knew better. 

Michel Sablon had similar struggles in Belgium, but succeeded - and now the national team is reaping the rewards.  Did you see the Roberto Martinez BBC film?  Really impressive.

Facilities are improving here too - there are many more astros and indoor facilities - and coach education continues to grow - the foundations are there.  I just think the top levels league structure is dull and wasteful, and not aligned with what others do in Europe - and if we want to be like them, we need to pick out examples of best practice across the board (youth to adult) and copy them.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Che Dail

[Dundee Hibernian]

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

 

Most of these guys featured for Netherlands at age groups u15 / u16/ u17 etc - all were retained in their club academy system, all have increased in value for their club, and all feature for the national side with potential to continue their development. Other than Klassen, they're 19-23 yr old with bright futures ahead.

It seems to be working, but no doubt our resident Dutch Nostradamus will explain why it is a disaster @Marten

 

Netherlands has three times the population of Scotland, have had colt sides in their system for 8 years as far as I can make out, and in that time the national side appears to have slumped to a low point in that they were 2nd in WC in 2010, 3rd in 2014, and failed to qualify for 2018. Similarly, from two semi final appearances in 2000 and 2004 in the Euros, they were quarter finalists in 2008, failed to qualify in 2012 from the group stages, and in 2016 did not get to the finals.

How that leads to 'seems to be working' confuses me.

The Dutch also don't appear to be as religiously confused as the Scots, thus don't suffer from the baggage of sectarianism, which I'm sure is the root cause of much of the opposition to the Old Firm colt applications. Finally, I don't think the top Dutch sides are looking to leave a presence in their league set up if they manage to find a way into the English competitions.

[LongTimeLurker]

2 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

...The Dutch also don't appear to be as religiously confused as the Scots...

You should maybe explore why they have seperate Saturday and Sunday leagues at amateur level and how it complicates having a fully functional pyramid.

[Marten]

10 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

You should maybe explore why they have seperate Saturday and Sunday leagues at amateur level and how it complicates having a fully functional pyramid.

Religion is indeed a factor in the artificial divide in non-league. But there isn't the sectarianism and bigotry over there. And nowadays, the divide isn't much about religion anymore. More and more Sunday teams are joining the Saturday leagues now without opposition from the Saturday sides.

[Dundee Hibernian]

13 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

You should maybe explore why they have seperate Saturday and Sunday leagues at amateur level and how it complicates having a fully functional pyramid.

 

1 minute ago, Marten said:

Religion is indeed a factor in the artificial divide in non-league. But there isn't the sectarianism and bigotry over there. And nowadays, the divide isn't much about religion anymore. More and more Sunday teams are joining the Saturday leagues now without opposition from the Saturday sides.

I'm aware of the set up at the fourth level in the Netherlands, but as Marten says, it's in no way comparable to the poisonous situation in much of Scotland.

Further on the Dutch system, if it's a good example to follow, perhaps we should have 18 sides in the top league in Scotland, following the Eredivisie example. But of course, that can't happen, because, well, we know why.