Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Marten]

2 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

 

I'm aware of the set up at the fourth level in the Netherlands, but as Marten says, it's in no way comparable to the poisonous situation in much of Scotland.

Further on the Dutch system, if it's a good example to follow, perhaps we should have 18 sides in the top league in Scotland, following the Eredivisie example. But of course, that can't happen, because, well, we know why.

Yeah, you're completely right, also there has never really been a religious divide in professional football anyway, so that's completely unlike Scotland!

[Che Dail]

27 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Netherlands has three times the population of Scotland, have had colt sides in their system for 8 years as far as I can make out, and in that time the national side appears to have slumped to a low point in that they were 2nd in WC in 2010, 3rd in 2014, and failed to qualify for 2018. Similarly, from two semi final appearances in 2000 and 2004 in the Euros, they were quarter finalists in 2008, failed to qualify in 2012 from the group stages, and in 2016 did not get to the finals.

How that leads to 'seems to be working' confuses me.

The Dutch also don't appear to be as religiously confused as the Scots, thus don't suffer from the baggage of sectarianism, which I'm sure is the root cause of much of the opposition to the Old Firm colt applications. Finally, I don't think the top Dutch sides are looking to leave a presence in their league set up if they manage to find a way into the English competitions.

It is working because they have 7 international players age 23 or under who have progressed through academy / b team / 1st team at clubs, and that progression is mirrored for the national team.  The effects of changes, big and small, are not always immediate.  The downward trend since 2010 will have roots 10  or 15 years before - not sure why it occured.

But since 2016 they've gone from 22nd to 20th to 14th to 12th  (then back to14th) and could well find themselves top 10 in the world again after the Euros.

England has 3 times the population of the Netherlands - I don't think population is a more accurate measure than, say, wealth - because richer countries tend to fare better at sport (eg see Norway / Denmark).  

But broadly speaking, over the past 20-30-40 years, I think most of Europe has looked to the Netherlands for inspiration when it comes to (total) football.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Che Dail

[oneteaminglasgow]

1 minute ago, Che Dail said:

It is working because they have 7 international players age 23 or under who have progressed through academy / b team / 1st team at clubs, and that progression is mirrored for the national team. 

That is utterly meaningless in and of itself, and in no way proves that B teams have improved youth development in the Netherlands. 

[Marten]

5 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

But broadly speaking, over the past 20-30-40 years, I think most of Europe has looked to the Netherlands for inspiration when it comes to (total) football.

And in those years there were no colt teams. The great Dutch sides of 1974, 1988 and 1998 as well as great club sides like Feyenoord 1970, Ajax 1971-1973  & 1990s, PSV 1988 for example were all developed without using colt teams.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

Still there is a lot room for improvement in the Scottish system as I explained before. That includes better coaching, better facilities, better co-ordination across the country and so on. It's those issues on which countries like The Netherlands, Croatia and others (not just countries with colt teams!) are so far ahead. Let's start adressing them maybe

Colt teams are only in tiers 2 & 3 in the Netherlands, Dumfries came from lower down so he played in tiers unaffected by these disgraceful teams. They clearly had a negative impact on the remaining teams in tiers 2 & 3 though...

But Marten it is a chicken and egg situation. The NT picked up £7.9m for qualifying for Euro 2020 and a further £0.5m from the draw with England so £8.4m from Euro 2020. That will be invaluable to the SFA and its' options to fund improvements.

However, you have to get the NT to qualify for the Euro and World Cup tournaments in the first place. That's the dilemma which football in Scotland faces.

I would suggest that the biggest SPFL clubs apply to join the English Youth system if it's at all possible. It knocks spots off anything that could possibly be set up in Scotland.

[Forest_Fifer]

So, by the looks of it, no promotion from HL or LL next season, apart from the arsecheek B teams.

Congratulations, you played yourself.

[Andy groundhopper]

Apart from the obvious greed from some spfl clubs, it needs change from the top - to allow Colts or B teams into the league. If you apply NO relegation, then the games are all friendly with nothing at stake. Make academies work, 3 Scots guarantee in a starting 11, those out on loan should be learning quickly, it's up to the clubs 100% to make reserve football work. 

[Honestman1954]

18 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Apart from the obvious greed from some spfl clubs, it needs change from the top - to allow Colts or B teams into the league. If you apply NO relegation, then the games are all friendly with nothing at stake. Make academies work, 3 Scots guarantee in a starting 11, those out on loan should be learning quickly, it's up to the clubs 100% to make reserve football work. 

I would make 50% of the players Scottish.

[LongTimeLurker]

51 minutes ago, Forest_Fifer said:

So, by the looks of it, no promotion from HL or LL next season, apart from the arsecheek B teams.

Congratulations, you played yourself.

This is not confirmed. Other sources say only 2022-23 and 2023-24 for that.

[vikingTON]

The idea that there should be a 'national formation' instilled in the club game is absolute madness. Take your Hamish Husband levels of obsession with thu national team!!! and place yourselves in the sea. 

 

[Che Dail]

5 minutes ago, virginton said:

The idea that there should be a 'national formation' instilled in the club game is absolute madness. Take your Hamish Husband levels of obsession with thu national team!!! and place yourselves in the sea. 

 

Yeah, those crazy Dutch and Belgians,  absolute madness! Must be the North Sea.  What do they know about football? Obsessed.

[rockson]

23 hours ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said:

For me the priority of Scottish football should be;

1. To have a strong international side.

2. To have club sides that do well in Europe.

 

 

Neither of those will happen just because youth teams are in the league system.  We should be thinking about what else do those other countries mentoned do that helps produce good players.

Edited June 25, 2021 by rockson

[Jack Burton]

Yes - I think Scotland can only sustain and only needs 2 professional leagues of FT players - and for B teams to have real value longer term, they would need to be in T2. 

Why not put the B teams in the top flight then why stop at tier 2?

[Dundee Hibernian]

1 minute ago, Jack Burton said:

6 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Yes - I think Scotland can only sustain and only needs 2 professional leagues of FT players - and for B teams to have real value longer term, they would need to be in T2. 

Why not put the B teams in the top flight then why stop at tier 2?

Don't worry about that, it's the aim if or when the 'Old Firm' f. off elsewhere for their B teams to play in the top tier. 

[Che Dail]

22 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Don't worry about that, it's the aim if or when the 'Old Firm' f. off elsewhere for their B teams to play in the top tier. 

Well there's an explanation why they don't allow it in the Spanish League in this article:

https://www.goalprofits.com/football-club-b-teams/

As an aside, it also says Messi played 22 times for Barcelona B team.

 

[Dundee Hibernian]

5 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Well there's an explanation why they don't allow it in the Spanish League in this article:

https://www.goalprofits.com/football-club-b-teams/

As an aside, it also says Messi played 22 times for Barcelona B team.

 

You'd have to indicate the section to me, as I see nothing connected to the point I made in that article.

And Barcelona, the Spanish/Catalonian  club, remind me of how many appearances Messi has made for Spain?

[Che Dail]

16 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

You'd have to indicate the section to me, as I see nothing connected to the point I made in that article.

And Barcelona, the Spanish/Catalonian  club, remind me of how many appearances Messi has made for Spain?

Copy / pasted from the article:

As a reserve team, clubs such as Barcelona and Real Madrid have been given special privileges by the Spanish Football Association which allow them to transfer players to and from their B teams throughout the season, even when the transfer window is closed. However, in order to keep things fair, B teams are barred from playing in the same division as their senior side.

For example, when Castilla and Bilbao Athletic, the reserve team of La Liga side Athletic Bilbao, finished up in first and second place in the 1983/84 Segunda Division season, it was Hercules CF, Racing de Santander and Elche CF, who finished third, fourth and fifth respectively, who gained promotion to the top flight.

The reason for this decision is due to the fact that clubs could use their B teams to benefit their senior teams. They could field a weakened squad when the two teams meet, for example, or transfer all of their best players to the B team when they face tougher opponents.

[Che Dail]

19 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

And Barcelona, the Spanish/Catalonian  club, remind me of how many appearances Messi has made for Spain?

Not one.

Ronaldo, however, did make a few for Portugal - he played for Sporting B team.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Che Dail

[Dundee Hibernian]

40 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Copy / pasted from the article:

As a reserve team, clubs such as Barcelona and Real Madrid have been given special privileges by the Spanish Football Association which allow them to transfer players to and from their B teams throughout the season, even when the transfer window is closed. However, in order to keep things fair, B teams are barred from playing in the same division as their senior side.

For example, when Castilla and Bilbao Athletic, the reserve team of La Liga side Athletic Bilbao, finished up in first and second place in the 1983/84 Segunda Division season, it was Hercules CF, Racing de Santander and Elche CF, who finished third, fourth and fifth respectively, who gained promotion to the top flight.

The reason for this decision is due to the fact that clubs could use their B teams to benefit their senior teams. They could field a weakened squad when the two teams meet, for example, or transfer all of their best players to the B team when they face tougher opponents.

If you read my post to which you responded with the article, which seems to suggest B sides benefit their clubs and not their nations, you'll understand that I stated the Old Firm are trying to get their colt teams in to eventually replace their top sides if they get a chance to move elsewhere. That section does not address that point in any way.

39 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Not one.

Ronaldo, however, did make a few for Portugal - he played for Sporting B team.

Ronaldo made a massive 2 (two) appearances for the B team, in the same season in which he had 32 places on the pitch for Sporting's first squad.

[Benidorm]

Its funny how Old Firm fans want B teams. Until they would possibly have to play the B teams too.  Get them in, but no in the Premiership eh.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Benidorm