Election 2021 Debates

[Baxter Parp]

9 hours ago, coprolite said:

Ask Greece

Do go on.

[coprolite]

45 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

Do go on.

You remember the Euro area debt crisis where Greece couldn't inflate away its debt or repay it (and fund spending) by issuing drachmas like a country with its own currency could? Then Germany basically told Greece its budget and now has a bankrupt balkan bitch? 

That. 

Fiscal autonomy isn't independence in a meaningful sense wthout monetary autonomy. 

[Baxter Parp]

6 minutes ago, coprolite said:

You remember the Euro area debt crisis where Greece couldn't inflate away its debt or repay it (and fund spending) by issuing drachmas like a country with its own currency could? Then Germany basically told Greece its budget and now has a bankrupt balkan bitch? 

So: 1/ Sharing a currency is not a barrier to joining the EU. and 2/ Greece still had a functioning market economy.

"A market economy functions under the laws of supply and demand.
It is characterized by private ownership, freedom of choice, self-interest, optimized buying and selling platforms, competition, and limited government intervention.
Competition drives the market economy as it optimizes efficiency and innovation. 
Market economies marginalize those that are unable to compete, contributing to income inequality."

https://www.thebalance.com/market-economy-characteristics-examples-pros-cons-3305586

What you're describing is a failure of Greece's government to manage it's economy properly not a failure of a market economy.

 

[coprolite]

1 hour ago, Baxter Parp said:

So: 1/ Sharing a currency is not a barrier to joining the EU. and 2/ Greece still had a functioning market economy.

"A market economy functions under the laws of supply and demand.
It is characterized by private ownership, freedom of choice, self-interest, optimized buying and selling platforms, competition, and limited government intervention.
Competition drives the market economy as it optimizes efficiency and innovation. 
Market economies marginalize those that are unable to compete, contributing to income inequality."

https://www.thebalance.com/market-economy-characteristics-examples-pros-cons-3305586

What you're describing is a failure of Greece's government to manage it's economy properly not a failure of a market economy.

 

Not negatively affected in any way, right.... 

[BigDoddyKane]

I dont think the euro works perfectly for a lot of other countries. The German economy is so big and so dependent on selling goods outside its borders that it causes difficulties to other countries especially but not only the Sothern European countries

[Baxter Parp]

1 hour ago, coprolite said:

Not negatively affected in any way, right.... 

It still functioned. Greece's issues were caused by the combination of poor tax gathering, huge loans from the ECB and a worldwide financial crisis. Not by having a shared currency.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Baxter Parp

[Baxter Parp]

53 minutes ago, BigDoddyKane said:

I dont think the euro works perfectly for a lot of other countries. The German economy is so big and so dependent on selling goods outside its borders that it causes difficulties to other countries especially but not only the Sothern European countries

There are definitely countries that should never have been admitted to the Eurozone because they didn't meet the criteria.  That's also their own fault.

[yoda]

29 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

It still functioned. Greece's issues were caused by the combination of poor tax gathering, huge loans from the ECB and a worldwide financial crisis. Not by having a shared currency.

Simping for the Euro. Sad! The Eurozone crisis was more than Greece. 

It's widely accepted that the Euro debt crisis was exacerbated by countries like Greece not being able to devalue their currency. If the IMF comes and gives you a debt restructuring plan built on "growing" your export (and tourism) heavy economy; yet you can't devalue your currency, then that's kinda a problem of a shared currency.

[Baxter Parp]

1 minute ago, yoda said:

Simping for the Euro. Sad! The Eurozone crisis was more than Greece. 

It's widely accepted that the Euro debt crisis was exacerbated by countries like Greece not being able to devalue their currency. If the IMF comes and gives you a debt restructuring plan built on "growing" your export (and tourism) heavy economy; yet you can't devalue your currency, then that's kinda a problem of a shared currency.

That's a problem of a shared currency but it's not the cause of Greece's problems.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/061115/origins-greeces-debt-crisis.asp

[yoda]

Your lazy links to Wikipedia type pages might work on others but no such luck here 

I - correctly - never said that Greece's problems were solely down to a shared currency. They were, however, made a lot worse by having a shared currency.

[GordonS]

57 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

It still functioned. Greece's issues were caused by the combination of poor tax gathering, huge loans from the ECB and a worldwide financial crisis. Not by having a shared currency.

That's just not true - it was all the things you mentioned and the shared currency. If Greece had had their own currency it would have devalued, making imports more expensive and exports cheaper. It would also have made their main domestic industry, tourism, much more attractive and would have brought in huge amounts of foreign cash. They'd have taken a big hit but they'd have recovered much more quickly - like Iceland did.

However, I don't think Greece is a good comparator for Scotland because we have a much stronger economy and less debt than they did. Ireland is a better example, and even through the worst of the credit crunch and the Euro crisis at no point did their GDP PPP per capita fall below the UK's, even though they had a stupidly extended housing market.

[Bert Raccoon]

23 minutes ago, yoda said:

Simping for the Euro. Sad! The Eurozone crisis was more than Greece. 

It's widely accepted that the Euro debt crisis was exacerbated by countries like Greece not being able to devalue their currency. If the IMF comes and gives you a debt restructuring plan built on "growing" your export (and tourism) heavy economy; yet you can't devalue your currency, then that's kinda a problem of a shared currency.

 

1 minute ago, yoda said:

Your lazy links to Wikipedia type pages might work on others but no such luck here 

I - correctly - never said that Greece's problems were solely down to a shared currency. They were, however, made a lot worse by having a shared currency.

Not necessarily disagreeing with your points but the virginton lite act is a poor look 

 

[yoda]

4 minutes ago, Bert Raccoon said:

 

Not necessarily disagreeing with your points but the virginton lite act is a poor look 

 

Sometimes posters who do their best to come across as experts in everything need to be on the end of the condescending tone for once

 

But you're right. As a poster I need to be better and to rise above it.

[Baxter Parp]

 

12 minutes ago, GordonS said:

That's just not true - it was all the things you mentioned and the shared currency. If Greece had had their own currency it would have devalued, making imports more expensive and exports cheaper. It would also have made their main domestic industry, tourism, much more attractive and would have brought in huge amounts of foreign cash. They'd have taken a big hit but they'd have recovered much more quickly - like Iceland did.

Iceland didn't devalue their currency.  You can say that a shared currency removed a tool from the Greek toolbox but it in no way caused the crisis.

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Baxter Parp
Wayward screengrab

[Baxter Parp]

15 minutes ago, yoda said:

Your lazy links to Wikipedia type pages might work on others but no such luck here 

In what way is it incorrect?

 

16 minutes ago, yoda said:

I - correctly - never said that Greece's problems were solely down to a shared currency. They were, however, made a lot worse by having a shared currency.

You're ignoring the original question.

[GordonS]

5 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

 

Iceland didn't devalue their currency.  You can say that a shared currency removed a tool from the Greek toolbox but it in no way caused the crisis.

 

 

 

Countries don't need to devalue their currency. The market will do that for them. This is how many krona it took to buy a Euro:

[Baxter Parp]

Just now, GordonS said:

Countries don't need to devalue their currency. The market will do that for them. This is how many krona it took to buy a Euro:

So now you're saying that the ability to devalue your currency isn't required? Well, the Euro also fell in late 09 to June10 from 1.50 to 1.29 vs the Dollar

[GordonS]

Just now, Baxter Parp said:

So now you're saying that the ability to devalue your currency isn't required? Well, the Euro also fell in late 09 to June10 from 1.50 to 1.29 vs the Dollar

If I was saying that then I would have said it, but as I said absolutely nothing remotely like it then I didn't.

Don't invent arguments that are easier for you to have, take on the ones that are being made.

As I showed, the Icelandic currency fell against the Euro by over double its value. If that had happened to Greece at the same time they'd have suffered more in the short term but have been in a massively better place by now. If you want to argue with that then good luck, I really don't see how that case could be made.

[Baxter Parp]

Just now, GordonS said:

If that had happened to Greece at the same time they'd have suffered more in the short term but have been in a massively better place by now. 

If Greece had managed their economy properly they wouldn't have been in the shit in the first place. 

[coprolite]

7 hours ago, Baxter Parp said:

It still functioned. Greece's issues were caused by the combination of poor tax gathering, huge loans from the ECB and a worldwide financial crisis. Not by having a shared currency.

They got huge loans from the ecb because they don't have their own central bank. Borrowing from your own central bank isn't really borrowing at all. Borrowing from one largely underwritten by a larger neighbour leaves you in thrall to a larger neighbour. 

Those loans didn't "cause" Greece's problems. But they were a manifestation of the obvious truth that Greece didn't have at its disposal one of the most crucial economic policy levers, control over its money. 

If Scotland doesn't have an economic crisis then it might not need control over monetary policy as urgently as Greece did. But crises are an inherent feature of capitalism. Something dramatic like going independent could easily trigger one. 

One of the best arguments for independence is that Scotland's (well, northern Britain's really) economy is out of step with the South's and UK's monetary policy is detrimental. I think it was Eddie George who said that unemployment in the north was a price worth paying for low inflation in the south. With a joint currency, that potential gain from independence is lost. 

I say again, fiscal autonomy without monetary autonomy is not independence in any meaningful sense. I'd go as far as saying it's lunacy.