National Anthems

[Ric]

There really isn't a need for a new thread, but I couldn't see where else to put this. It's from a non-footballing story, some God botherer has claimed that the racist xenophobes in England are just misunderstood and that "Their heartfelt cry to be heard is often disregarded, wilfully misunderstood or patronised as backwardly xenophobic."

You'll forgive me for glossing over this massive bit of revisionism, as the real meat of this thread is when he goes on to describe how we could address this "lack of representation of English racists", his solution was this..

Of course the red flag is in the first words of that paragraph, if you are writing in the Daily Telegraph you aren't aiming your comments towards "the common man", you are clearly setting out a right wing talking point, as that's the DT's entire raison d'etre.

 

However, all that aside, how about we all join in good old British rendition of GSTQ? After all it would help heal the egos of the English who have gone so balls deep into xenophobia that their whole cultural identity is tied to it.

[Jimi Shandrix]

I think we should ditch all UK anthems. They're all shit. Let's just all sing the Italian one instead..

[Ric]

1 minute ago, Jimi Shandrix said:

I think we should ditch all UK anthems. They're all shit. Let's just all sing the Italian one instead..

I find Flower of Scotland to be an utter dirge, that said I find GSTQ utterly insulting.

If we get rid of all the UK anthems then that means dumping the Welsh one which, along with the Russian one (although, obvs, not a UK anthem), are easily my "favourites".

[BFTD]

They could replace the UK national anthem with a 10 second looped techno banger with "SWEATY SOCKS, f**k THE JOCKS" screamed over the top in the most heinous Essex accent imaginable, and it would still be a massive improvement over God Save the fucking Queen.

[Clown Job]

It’s a pathetic suggestion and one that should be treated with the distain it deserves 

[GordonS]

54 minutes ago, Ric said:

I find Flower of Scotland to be an utter dirge...

 

It's weird that it's pretty much only Scottish people who say this. Flower of Scotland regularly features in lists of favourite national anthems in other countries. 

[Ric]

49 minutes ago, GordonS said:

It's weird that it's pretty much only Scottish people who say this. Flower of Scotland regularly features in lists of favourite national anthems in other countries. 

It's pretty weird you don't think it is! It's awful as a national anthem. Nowhere near the worst, but certainly not good.

btw, got a link to this "favourite national anthems" claim, as I've never seen Scotland being considered for such an accolade.

[BFTD]

FoS is great. The main problem is that it's apparently impossible to get the crowd to sing it in time to the music.

Maybe we'd be better with an aggressive and terrifying instrumental - something with thunderous drums and the high-pitched squealing we've come to associate with traditional Scottish music.

Bits & Pieces it is.

[GordonS]

27 minutes ago, Ric said:

It's pretty weird you don't think it is! It's awful as a national anthem. Nowhere near the worst, but certainly not good.

 

No, I could not disagree with you more. I often wonder what motivates such views because I don't think it's about music. There's an overreaction against Flower of Scotland that you only get from Scottish people.

ETA The word "dirge" always comes up in this context, but is almost never used anywhere else. It's a cliche. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by GordonS

[Ric]

1 minute ago, GordonS said:

... because I don't think it's about music.

Not sure about others, but for me it's certainly about the music, I have no issue with the sentiment.

[Wee Bully]

28 minutes ago, GordonS said:

No, I could not disagree with you more. I often wonder what motivates such views because I don't think it's about music. There's an overreaction against Flower of Scotland that you only get from Scottish people.

ETA The word "dirge" always comes up in this context, but is almost never used anywhere else. It's a cliche. 

Agreed - it’s is spine tingling when done well.  Murrayfield has nailed it with the unaccompanied second verse.  

[forameus]

1 hour ago, Wee Bully said:

Agreed - it’s is spine tingling when done well.  Murrayfield has nailed it with the unaccompanied second verse.  

  

This for me, and generally it's what pushes a national anthem up.  Musically, if the Italian anthem comes up sung by one guy with a shite performance, it's not going to seem like the absolute God-tier that Chiellini and Pals made it seem during the Euros.  Not that it's bad by any means, but the performance and emotion behind it can elevate any anthem.  At the same time it's going to be pretty hard to elevate something like GSTQ, because it's completely tedious. Get 11 pumped up English players singing it like the Italians did, it'll still sound like they can't be arsed.  Flower of Scotland lies somewhere between the two for me.  I'd like to see us with something better, but it can be elevated beyond what we get at Hampden

As for the original suggestion that we all do a Happy Clappy rendition of GSTQ everywhere...lol.  That's the sort of shite you'd get from the US and their baffling levels of patriotism.

Edited August 7, 2021 by forameus

[Ric]

This has gone a little off topic, as I was more intending to lambaste the god botherer for soft soaping xenophobes then suggesting that Scots sing GSTQ. However if the topic is about FoS, then fine, I'll run with it...

Look at the two national anthems I think are some of the best, the Welsh and the Russian ones...

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

You can probably spot why I like them, they are genuinely uplifting with large changes of key, what's more they sound imposing, especially when sung in by a group of people. FoS however, is a very standard run of the mill trad folk tune. It's almost all in one key, has no feeling of uplift, and it's as imposing as a wet sock. The Corries were making a song to fill an album, not writing a national anthem and it shows.

Don't get me wrong, and as I said, I have absolutely no issue with the sentiment, but FoS lacks any gravitas what so ever.

Now, what to change it to? Oh, good God, who knows... While I find FoS underwhelming to say the least, the other options don't fill me with any excitement. Apparently there was a poll in 2006 with this being the results: Flower of Scotland (41%), Scotland the Brave (29%), Highland Cathedral (16%),  A Man's A Man for A' That  (7%), Scots Wha Hae (6%). Now before people start saying "look it's the most popular" you should know that only 10,000 people participated, it was run by the RSNO and it was not an open vote, you had to choose one of the  5 options. It's an endorsement, sure, but certainly not a ringing one.

Bottom line is FoS will remain not because it's good (it's not), not because it's uplifting (it's not) and not because it's the most popular (debatable) but because there is nothing else to replace it with.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Ric

[Ric]

As a side note, I see that PSG use the FoS tune for one of their chants..

 

[San Starko Rover]

The idea is fucking laughable Scotland and Wales fans largely reject God Save the Queen and consequently it’s often boo’d, this would come across as singing FOS to be proud of being Scottish but then sing GSQ to know our place, get it so far into the sea.  God Save the Queen is also a terrible anthem as it’s about one person instead of being about the country England and the UK should have changed it years ago to a song that represents the country not the monarch.  

[Savage Henry]

22 hours ago, GordonS said:

No, I could not disagree with you more. I often wonder what motivates such views because I don't think it's about music. There's an overreaction against Flower of Scotland that you only get from Scottish people.

ETA The word "dirge" always comes up in this context, but is almost never used anywhere else. It's a cliche. 

Dirge is a type of music.  Flower of Scotland, objectively speaking, is a dirge.  

It’s also a terrible national anthem for that specific reason.  The lyrics are hackneyed and clawing, and folk can’t sing it in time.  I’d gladly go back to the days of Scotland the Brave, because it was at least upbeat.  Spain and Japan have anthems with no lyrics.  

I must agree, though, Russia’s is an absolute belter.  Stirring, emotive, and melodic.  

Edit: I daresay no such list exists, but quite clearly a top 10 anthems of people in Europe would be 1. Full of folk voting for their own country or 2. Italy, Germany, France, and Russia by an absolute mile.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Savage Henry

[BFTD]

36 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

Edit: I daresay no such list exists, but quite clearly a top 10 anthems of people in Europe would be 1. Full of folk voting for their own country or 2. Italy, Germany, France, and Russia by an absolute mile.

Eurovision.

2 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

God Save the Queen is also a terrible anthem as it’s about one person instead of being about the country England and the UK should have changed it years ago to a song that represents the country not the monarch.  

It's worse than that; it's a celebration of being serfs to a family of ordinary people who could not care less if you lived or died.

Absolutely mental that so many English people belt that shit out, and it actually makes me feel bad for the conditioning that's been forced on them.

[velo army]

I reckon it's tough now to come up with a national anthem that isn't hackneyed birthday caird pish (see "Ireland's call") so I dare say we're stuck with FoS for the foreseeable.

Just a wee bit of pedantry Ric. I think you mean "chord changes" when you said "key changes".  But you are right. The chord changes in both anthems are hugely impactful. Both anthems have melodies that soar, giving a sense of exaltation and elevation. The Welsh anthem is from that great tradition of choral singing and it shows. The melody, while quite simple, leaps and invites variety in the accompaniment. It also ends on a high note, which is a huge plus for me.

I think "Scotland Will Flourish" by the Corries might have had potential once, and melodically it's either "Scotland the Brave" or "Scots Wha Hae" for me, but I shudder to think what a modernly written anthem would sound like.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by velo army

[BFTD]

5 hours ago, velo army said:

I think "Scotland Will Flourish" by the Corries might have had potential once, and melodically it's either "Scotland the Brave" or "Scots Wha Hae" for me, but I shudder to think what a modernly written anthem would sound like.

It'd likely end up feeling like one of those modern Christian hymns. The ones that focus on "isn't life grand?" and bend over backwards not to mention God or Jesus.

Anyone else sing this one at primary school?

Spoiler

Autumn days when the grass is jewelled
And the silk inside a chestnut shell.
Jetplanes meeting in the air to be refuelled.
All these thing I love so well

So I mustn't forget
No, I mustn't forget.
To say a great big
Thank You
I mustn't forget

Clouds that look like familiar faces
And the winter's moon with frosted rings.
Smell of bacon as I fasten up my laces
And the song the milkman sings

CHORUS

Whipped-up spray that is rainbow-scattered
And a swallow curving in the sky
Shoes so comfy though they're worn out and they're battered
And the taste of
apple pie.

CHORUS

Scent of gardens when the rain's been falling
And a minnow darting down a stream
Picked-up engine that's been stuttering and stalling
And a win for my home team.

To say a great big
Thank You
I mustn't forget

 

[Falcor Roar]

A man's a man for a' that. A positive message and appropriate to use Burns for our national anthem.