Afghanistan Crisis

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1 minute ago, Detournement said:

That's like saying because an occasional police officer ends up in jail in the USA police violence isn't an issue. All the cases you hear about involve complete depravity, there is never any Bloody Sunday incidents with reprecussions for inappropriate lethal force. 

There are also notable cases where US and British soldiers have committed war crimes and been hailed as heroes by various politicians and the media. Chris Kyle being the highest profile example. 

I do not deny for a second that there are examples, plenty even, of NATO troops committing unconscionable crimes, including those against civilians, which have gone unpunished. Nor even do I deny that there are systemic problems that need addressed to eradicate such behaviour.

But it is not even remotely comparable to the Taliban, which proactively encourages war crimes against girls by dint of their theocratic diktats. It takes an extraordinary amount of bad faith on your part to give the two something even vaguely resembling equivalence.

[welshbairn]

Not sure if this is genuine. I can only find it from Hindi sources, and they're renowned for publishing hoaxes to make Muslims look bad.

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by welshbairn

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Just now, welshbairn said:

Not sure if this is genuine.

 

"But Bloody Sunday"

[NotThePars]

‘The West’ and ‘Western Values’ leave a lot to be desired at times, but anyone who thinks that these ‘values’ are inferior to what the Taliban will impose is a fucking crackpot.
And yes, if I had the power I’d impose these values on people until such times as a majority were able to run their own affairs in a way that wouldn’t mean them reverting to the brutality of the religious crackpots.  I could live with my conscience quite easily ‘imposing’ educational rights for girls and tolerance of LGBT people amongst other things.

I love self-proclaimed socialists saying this and putting the likes of Donald Rumsfeld in charge of defending these values. That’s before you even get to the laughable suggestion that imposing these values by force of arms and occupation at the cost of trillions of dollars is actually achievable after we’ve just attempted to wrap up a two decade war that resolutely failed to do just that!

[Savage Henry]

16 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

‘The West’ and ‘Western Values’ leave a lot to be desired at times, but anyone who thinks that these ‘values’ are inferior to what the Taliban will impose is a fucking crackpot.

And yes, if I had the power I’d impose these values on people until such times as a majority were able to run their own affairs in a way that wouldn’t mean them reverting to the brutality of the religious crackpots.  I could live with my conscience quite easily ‘imposing’ educational rights for girls and tolerance of LGBT people amongst other things.

 

Right.  And the idea that somehow these values are inherently contradictory to Islamic beliefs in Islamic countries is just as blinkered as the Britain First mob saying they are incompatible with Christian beliefs.  

The general analysis of both Afghanistan and Iraq is rather spoiled by a polarisation between free market imperialism on one side, and a strange kind of masochism which holds that anything predominant in the “West” is inherently negative for the rest of the world.  The truth is, much like in the UK, reception to US-lead intervention by Afghans and Iraqis is split.   For some Iraqis, the second gulf war is one of the great acts of personal and cultural liberation.  In other parts, it represents an imperialism that has blighted international relations since the early 20th century.  

There’s no reason to see, for example, LBGQT+ rights as cultural imposition.  

And even if it were merely imperialist expansion - which is a relatively recent accusation to be made against the US, there’s nothing inevitable about 9/11, just as there was nothing inevitable about the First World War.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Savage Henry

[Jinky67]

33 minutes ago, AMMjag said:

 

Well that meek and mild pretense fell away (predictably) quickly. 

 

What were you expecting? Me to go in two footed and into great detail about just how far away from the reality of it he is? What purpose does that serve? I shouldn't have replied to him and happy to admit it was a bit of a dickish reply

22 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

Do you say this if you ever read any modern historiography on, say, the Napoleonic Wars?

 

I'm overly sensitive to the subject matter by my own admission hence why i would normally avoid posting about it however have found myself getting sucked in over the past few days against my better judgement. 

I know exactly where you are coming from and i shouldn't have responded to him in that way, as i said above it was a dickish reply that deserved jumped on. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Jinky67

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

 

Right.  And the idea that somehow these values are inherently contradictory to Islamic beliefs in Islamic countries is just as blinkered as your Britain First mob saying they are incompatible with Christian beliefs.  

The general analysis of both Afghanistan and Iraq is rather spoiled by a polarisation between free market imperialism on one side, and a strange kind of masochism which holds that anything predominant in the “West” is inherently negative for the rest of the world.  The truth is, much like in the UK, reception to US-lead intervention by Afghans and Iraqis is split.   For some Iraqis, the second gulf war is one of the great acts of personal and cultural liberation.  In other parts, it represents an imperialism that has blighted international relations since the early 20th century.  

And even if it were merely imperialist expansion - which is a relatively recent accusation to be made against the US, there’s nothing inevitable about 9/11, just as there was nothing inevitable about the First World War.

I’ve read that three times and can’t work out if you’re agreeing with me or disagreeing.  

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5 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

I love self-proclaimed socialists saying this and putting the likes of Donald Rumsfeld in charge of defending these values. That’s before you even get to the laughable suggestion that imposing these values by force of arms and occupation at the cost of trillions of dollars is actually achievable after we’ve just attempted to wrap up a two decade war that resolutely failed to do just that!

 

Donald Rumsfeld is dead mate.

[vikingTON]

Gormless Gordon at the Cuban Missile Crisis - 'Listen, those commie ships could have already turned back in open water whenever they wanted to, let's just launch that ground invasion early and get it over with'.

*Battlefield nukes rain down on the invasion spot, securing global annihilation*

[Savage Henry]

Just now, Granny Danger said:

I’ve read that three times and can’t work out if you’re agreeing with me or disagreeing.  

Very much in agreement!   Will consider revising!

[Detournement]

Savage Henry is more emotionally invested in the Iraq War than Blair. 

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1 minute ago, Detournement said:

Savage Henry is more emotionally invested in the Iraq War than Blair. 

Whereas you're just a smarmy p***k chipping in about "colonialism" from thousands of miles away sneering at the personal testimonies of those who actually know what they're talking about.

[Savage Henry]

 

4 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Savage Henry is more emotionally invested in the Iraq War than Blair. 

I don’t think that’s remotely the insult you intend it to be.

[badgertheeuro24witness]

19 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

 

And yes, if I had the power I’d impose these values on people until such times as a majority were able to run their own affairs in a way that wouldn’t mean them reverting to the brutality of the religious crackpots.  I could live with my conscience quite easily ‘imposing’ educational rights for girls and tolerance of LGBT people amongst other things.

The thread takes an unexpected turn as Danger draws up plans to invade Russia, Hungary & Poland.

[Granny Danger]

Just now, badgerthewitness said:

The thread takes an unexpected turn as Danger draws up plans to invade Russia, Hungary & Poland.

and Falkirk

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Just now, Granny Danger said:

and Falkirk

Motion to include Greenock in the surge target list?

[badgertheeuro24witness]

1 minute ago, Granny Danger said:

and Falkirk

Massive army, mate.

[vikingTON]

40 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps none of it was required or needed. But the political reality of the time was that, as soon as the towers were hit, war was on. 

How would that 'political reality' have manifested itself? If the US administration had conducted cruise missile strikes on assorted Islamist/AQ targets and not declared war on a sovereign state within 28 days, what would have happened to make that war inevitable?

Bush was recently elected and three full years away from reelection. No immediate pressure there. 

The President was not going to be impeached by Congress for not going to war with Afghanistan. 

The US military was not likely to mount a coup against the civilian government. 

The outcome of war was determined at the end of the day by the attitudes of the leaders, not public sentiment. Had a more rational set of leaders been in charge and pursued a different strategy, most public opinion would have acquiesced in this. Indeed, we know this is true because the great bogeyman himself - Osama bin Laden - largely disappeared from public discourse in the US between 2003 and his death. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by vikingTON

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, Ad Lib said:

Whereas you're just a smarmy p***k chipping in about "colonialism" from thousands of miles away sneering at the personal testimonies of those who actually know what they're talking about.

Who's knows what they are talking about exactly?

Saying that the US invasion and the insane level of violence it brought which is still ongoing is a Brexit style social division in Iraq is beyond belief. Years of almost weekly terror attacks on the level of the Boston Marathon bombing or 7/7, CIA created sectarian death squads running wild for years, large parts of the country poisoned by depleted uranium leading to cancer and birth defects and entire cities levelled multiple times. It is an unequivocal disaster. 

[Granny Danger]

1 minute ago, badgerthewitness said:

Massive army, mate.

Like the football team they would collapse under the slightest pressure.  I’d prefer invading Russia tbh, the people would be easier to understand.