Seven years on

[welshbairn]

I always took the "once in a generation" thing to mean "get out and vote, it's been a long time since the last one so seize the opportunity". Nobody said there shouldn't be another one for a generation. And given the Better Together campaign was heavily grounded on "Vote No to stay in the EU", they should really keep quiet on the issue.

[Scott Steiner]

11 hours ago, Theyellowbox said:

In hindsight it may have been on the horizon, but it was not on the manifesto of the government that had been elected at the time and not even the most ardent brexiteer believed the vote would have gone the way it did, so the prospect of a referendum wasn't a factor. What would have been a factor was that a lot was made about Scotland having to leave the EU if it voted yes. Not incorrect, but the argument was made that to remain in the EU we had to vote no. What difference it would have made if people knew a vote for no also meant leaving the EU, we will never know.

A common argument was that it was a once in a generation vote. I have 2 issues with that being used as a reason not to have a referendum. 1) where in the terms does it say that? Politicians may have said that, but I think it would be fair to say we all thought that regardless of what side people were on, but that was before the biggest constitutional change in most of our lifetimes. The choice was independence vs status quo and where we are now is not the status quo. 2) what and who defines a generation? Given the vote was in 2014 and open to 16 year olds and above only, everyone under the age of 23 has had no say in the matter. Assuming any referendum would be 2023 at the earliest, you could have everyone 25 and under never having had a say. Think about it in another sense. Knock a decade of the year you were born and ask yourself if someone born it that year is the same 'generation' as you. Go the other way and is someone born a decade after you the same generation? Different when you are older, but between 16 and 25/26 is huge.

I'm pro independence, but never closed enough not to listen to the arguments that oppose my view. If I'm making a massive decision that will outlast me, I  want to know that it wasn't short term and reactionary and that I don't ignore uncomfortable points that I may not like or agree with. People may not want independence and that is OK, but it is not a reason not to have the referendum when there is mandate after mandate for it. Had we not had brexit, however much I would want independence, I would recognise that for now, it is not to be, in the same way, as much as I think Brexit is a bad idea, I'm democratic and respectful enough to recognise it is what has happened and while we are in the UK, to try and make it work as best as possible and as beneficial to the whole of the UK as possible.

Anyway, no, not going to the game as having to self isolate due to Covid case in the house. Might end up being a blessing! 

Great point about most believing the EU result would go the other way.. I definitely did too.

I couldn't believe it when I put the telly on and Farage was giving a victory speech!

I think the No side were correct in saying that we'd have been taken out of the EU on the event on partition.  Obviously both sides spun it a certain way, but the No side didn't lie IMO.  There was no cast iron guarantee of remaining in the EU forever.

Yeah, you're right in saying that the once in a generation thing wasn't in the terms.  I still think it's a good argument to use against an indyref though, but then again I'm obviously highly biased!

I've always just thought 'generation' means the usual length of time between parents and children in a family.  Maybe 25 years or something?  I suppose its debatable though.

I'm the same as you.. my mind could be changed if I heard the right arguments.  As mental and unrealistic as this might sound, I actually go out my way to listen to/watch Nationalist content to get the other view.  Lesley Riddoch, Independence Live and others.

For me, economics and GDP don't matter as much as history, culture and a sense of identity though.  That may sound primitive, but it's the way I am.  If I was ever to support partition, It'd have to allow me to keep my Britishness.

Hope self isolation isn't driving you too crazy!

[The_Kincardine]

On 10/12/2021 at 17:17, Theyellowbox said:

But that is divergence in policy. What I mean is also to do with divergence in societal views. Consistent electoral votes is the evidence of that, Brexit is the evidence of that, covid policy reactions are the evidence if that, racial divisions are the evidence of that.

Attitudes the imigration are becoming very different.

There is more that unite us, but decreasingly so. 

Societal views:  The Scotch continue to support the defunding of the NHS, the devaluing of education, the undermining of  local democracy and the dilapidation of national transport.
Attitudes the imigration:  The  Scotch want a hard border with England in order to keep the purity of the race.

The much that unites us is being whittled  down by so many Scotch supporting extremist Nationalism allied to a tolerance of incompetence and mendacity.

 

[ICTJohnboy]

3 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Societal views:  The "Scotch" continue to support the defunding of the NHS, the devaluing of education, the undermining of  local democracy and the dilapidation of national transport.
Attitudes the imigration:  The  "Scotch" want a hard border with England in order to keep the purity of the race.

The much that unites us is being whittled  down by so many "Scotch" supporting extremist Nationalism allied to a tolerance of incompetence and mendacity.

 

 

There nothing quite like a "Scotch" education!

Where were you educated Kinc?

[speckled tangerine]

7 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Societal views:  The Scotch continue to support the defunding of the NHS, the devaluing of education, the undermining of  local democracy and the dilapidation of national transport.
Attitudes the imigration:  The  Scotch want a hard border with England in order to keep the purity of the race.

The much that unites us is being whittled  down by so many Scotch supporting extremist Nationalism allied to a tolerance of incompetence and mendacity.

 

This is absolutely wild stuff here. Part of me hopes that Kincardine is simply a guy out of touch and out of time but every weekend this stuff gets more and more angry.

[Soapy FFC]

5 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

There nothing quite like a "Scotch" education!

Where were you educated Kinc?

 

[sophia]

Just now, ICTJohnboy said:

 

There nothing quite like a "Scotch" education!

Where were you educated Kinc?

Should we blame his alma mater for his failure and in this instance, his dereliction with regard to immigration?

[The_Kincardine]

2 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

There nothing quite like a "Scotch" education!

Where were you educated Kinc?

Chapelhall Primary - C'haw
Ladywell Primary, M'well
Dalziel High,M'well
Bell College of Technology, H'ton
King's College, L'don

How about you, chap?

[The_Kincardine]

4 minutes ago, speckled tangerine said:

This is absolutely wild stuff here. 

I know you  love 'playing the man' but in the big devolved areas which I highlighted - health, education, local government and transport - the Holyrood administration is letting Scotland down.

That you refuse to acknowledge this and refer to it as 'wild stuff' is why Scotland is being sold short by an incompetent regime.

[sophia]

4 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Chapelhall Primary - C'haw
Ladywell Primary, M'well
Dalziel High,M'well
Bell College of Technology, H'ton
King's College, L'don

How about you, chap?

^^^

Once, twice, five times a janitor 

[ICTJohnboy]

5 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Chapelhall Primary - C'haw
Ladywell Primary, M'well
Dalziel High,M'well
Bell College of Technology, H'ton
King's College, L'don

How about you, chap?

 

Guess your education suffered when you got to King's College.

Me?

Bridge of Weir Primary

Paisley Grammar

Reid Kerr College, Paisley

Kitson College, Leeds

 

[speckled tangerine]

Just now, The_Kincardine said:

I know you  love 'playing the man' but in the big devolved areas which I highlighted - health, education, local government and transport - the Holyrood administration is letting Scotland down.

That you refuse to acknowledge this and refer to it as 'wild stuff' is why Scotland is being sold short by an incompetent regime.

Not at all mate. 

The Scottish Government could and should be doing better.

This on the other hand...

10 minutes ago, speckled tangerine said:

Attitudes the imigration:  The  Scotch want a hard border with England in order to keep the purity of the race.

Really? This is bullshit. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Shameful from you.

[The_Kincardine]

On 10/12/2021 at 17:17, Theyellowbox said:

Attitudes the imigration are becoming very different.

There is more that unite us, but decreasingly so. 

 

11 minutes ago, sophia said:

Should we blame his alma mater for his failure and in this instance, his dereliction with regard to immigration?

I was quoting.  That you didn't spot this comes as no surprise.

[ICTJohnboy]

11 minutes ago, sophia said:

Should we blame his alma mater for his failure and in this instance, his dereliction with regard to immigration?

 

Something went far wrong somewhere.

[Scott Steiner]

7 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

I know you  love 'playing the man' but in the big devolved areas which I highlighted - health, education, local government and transport - the Holyrood administration is letting Scotland down.

That you refuse to acknowledge this and refer to it as 'wild stuff' is why Scotland is being sold short by an incompetent regime.

Glad I'm not the only one that's noticed Speckled Orange's tendency to play the man.

[The_Kincardine]

4 minutes ago, speckled tangerine said:

Not at all mate. 

The Scottish Government could and should be doing better.

This on the other hand...

Really? This is bullshit. Absolute unmitigated bullshit. Shameful from you.

I responded a short  time ago to this:

On 11/12/2021 at 18:19, Kenneth840 said:

To answer both these questions, Scots born will be in the minority.  It has been declining for years and immigration to Scotland has been increasing for 300 years. 

There is no doubt that 1. A coterie of Scotch hate the incursion of the English north and 2. Based on what we know, iJock in the EU would stop the free movement of  goods, people and labour within GB.

So not shame on me, by any measure. Shame on you for supporting a small-minded policy of  xenophobia.

[Antlion]

1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said:

 

So not shame on me, by any measure. Shame on you for supporting a small-minded policy of  xenophobia.

Like you do when you share and promote the Tweets of far right extremists, racists, and Brexiteers? 

[ICTJohnboy]

2 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

I responded a short  time ago to this:

There is no doubt that 1. A coterie of Scotch hate the incursion of the English north and 2. Based on what we know, iJock in the EU would stop the free movement of  goods, people and labour within GB.

So not shame on me, by any measure. Shame on you for supporting a small-minded policy of  xenophobia.

 

Have you been out on the piss with Steiner again?

[sophia]

7 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

 

I was quoting.  That you didn't spot this comes as no surprise.

Oh I spotted it alright and I see you for all that you are.

[The_Kincardine]

1 minute ago, sophia said:

Oh I spotted it alright and I see you for all that you are.

Did you f**k.