VAR in Scottish Football

[Bobby_F]

Just on VAR generally, in Scotland I believe they can only use tech to definitively determine onside/offside. 

But everything else is still down to a human being to use their knowledge, experience and judgment to decide whether the on field officials could benefit from a view that they didn't have.

I don't think anyone is saying the ball WASN'T provably NOT over the line, nor that it WAS provably over the line.

So, like a slight shirt tug which sends a 12 stone man to the ground leading to the ref having a look at an angle he didn't have and making a decision, should the VAR official not have just asked the ref to have a look and make his own decision?

[DukDukGoose]

2 minutes ago, Bobby_F said:

Just on VAR generally, in Scotland I believe they can only use tech to definitively determine onside/offside. 

But everything else is still down to a human being to use their knowledge, experience and judgment to decide whether the on field officials could benefit from a view that they didn't have.

I don't think anyone is saying the ball WASN'T provably NOT over the line, nor that it WAS provably over the line.

So, like a slight shirt tug which sends a 12 stone man to the ground leading to the ref having a look at an angle he didn't have and making a decision, should the VAR official not have just asked the ref to have a look and make his own decision?

VAR asks the ref to watch the video if they think he's got it wrong, not if he can't decide.

[The Master]

45 minutes ago, Bobby_F said:

Just on VAR generally, in Scotland I believe they can only use tech to definitively determine onside/offside. 

That depends on what you mean by "tech".

They can only draw lines for offside, but they can definitely use video replays to determine other factual incidents. The matter of whether the whole of the ball crossed the whole of the line is a "factual incident". 

Had there been a goal-line camera on Saturday, and that camera definitively showed the whole of the ball over the whole of the line, the goal would have been given without any involvement from the on-field referee.

 

[Dons_1988]

1 hour ago, Bobby_F said:

Just on VAR generally, in Scotland I believe they can only use tech to definitively determine onside/offside. 

But everything else is still down to a human being to use their knowledge, experience and judgment to decide whether the on field officials could benefit from a view that they didn't have.

I don't think anyone is saying the ball WASN'T provably NOT over the line, nor that it WAS provably over the line.

So, like a slight shirt tug which sends a 12 stone man to the ground leading to the ref having a look at an angle he didn't have and making a decision, should the VAR official not have just asked the ref to have a look and make his own decision?

so basically your point is VAR is a complete waste of everyone’s time, money and effort. Agreed. 

[AngusTheBull]

1 hour ago, Bobby_F said:

Just on VAR generally, in Scotland I believe they can only use tech to definitively determine onside/offside. 

But everything else is still down to a human being to use their knowledge, experience and judgment to decide whether the on field officials could benefit from a view that they didn't have.

I don't think anyone is saying the ball WASN'T provably NOT over the line, nor that it WAS provably over the line.

So, like a slight shirt tug which sends a 12 stone man to the ground leading to the ref having a look at an angle he didn't have and making a decision, should the VAR official not have just asked the ref to have a look and make his own decision?

A shirt tug is a subjective decision, the ball being over the line is a factual yes/no. 
 

Was the ball 100% without doubt over the line as proven by the footage? If not (as here), then stick with the onfield decision. It’s pretty straightforward and the same would have applied had the ref awarded the goal.

[AJF]

I think this incident is a perfect example of why VAR makes the game worse. Pre-VAR, this decision would've been debated but the officials would get some concessions due to it being a close call.

Now though, we expect every single decision to be correct even when VAR does not allow it so when a decision does come along that we don't like, we feel even more aggrieved by it. As people say above, some decisions are still going to be subjective, and some decisions are just not able to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

[The Master]

6 minutes ago, AJF said:

I think this incident is a perfect example of why VAR makes the game worse. Pre-VAR, this decision would've been debated but the officials would get some concessions due to it being a close call.

Now though, we expect every single decision to be correct even when VAR does not allow it so when a decision does come along that we don't like, we feel even more aggrieved by it. As people say above, some decisions are still going to be subjective, and some decisions are just not able to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

For this specific incident, it shows how ridiculous it is to have VAR* and not goal line technology.

 

*Or at least, VAR without fixed goal line cameras (and anyone who mentions GoPros can get in the sea; it's clearly not as simple as that). 

[VincentGuerin]

4 hours ago, Bobby_F said:

So, like a slight shirt tug which sends a 12 stone man to the ground leading to the ref having a look at an angle he didn't have and making a decision, should the VAR official not have just asked the ref to have a look and make his own decision?

The shirt tug was an obvious penalty, but the 'goal/not goal' is not one that anyone can really paint as an error, since nobody can tell whether it was in or not. Completely separate things.

VAR is shite, but within the context of using it, the officials did nothing wrong with these two incidents.

[HibsFan]

A great example in tonight's English game with that Wolves penalty of how VAR not only doesn't fix mistakes in football, but indeed entrenches further unconscious biases towards the biggest clubs.

[VincentGuerin]

7 hours ago, HibsFan said:

A great example in tonight's English game with that Wolves penalty of how VAR not only doesn't fix mistakes in football, but indeed entrenches further unconscious biases towards the biggest clubs.

Just saw that.

Fucking hell.

[Bobby_F]

On 14/08/2023 at 18:17, VincentGuerin said:

The shirt tug was an obvious penalty, but the 'goal/not goal' is not one that anyone can really paint as an error, since nobody can tell whether it was in or not. Completely separate things.

VAR is shite, but within the context of using it, the officials did nothing wrong with these two incidents.

 

On 15/08/2023 at 07:39, VincentGuerin said:

Just saw that.

Fucking hell.

This was my point.  

That shirt tug happens by a Man United (or OF) player and it’s way less likely to be picked up by VAR.  

That’s the extreme level, but there’s general inconsistency with these things, as I assume you’re not suggesting that every shirt tug in every game with VAR leads to a penalty?

[VincentGuerin]

8 minutes ago, Bobby_F said:

That’s the extreme level, but there’s general inconsistency with these things, as I assume you’re not suggesting that every shirt tug in every game with VAR leads to a penalty?

Not sure what you're pursuing here.

I think any competent use of VAR would result in a penalty being given in the circumstances Dundee got theirs on Saturday. It was an obvious foul missed by the referee. There's nothing really to discuss.

The fact that VAR is shite is an entirely different issue.

I've seen a few St Mirren fans implying they were hard done by on Saturday by the officials. I think it's telling that in a game like St Mirren v Dundee where lots of people are genuinely not arsed who wins, almost nobody is agreeing with those claims here. Both decisions were fine.

[Molotov]

On 15/08/2023 at 00:37, HibsFan said:

A great example in tonight's English game with that Wolves penalty of how VAR not only doesn't fix mistakes in football, but indeed entrenches further unconscious biases towards the biggest clubs.

We saw a number of issues favouring Spurs last season in a single match against Brighton (IIRC) that really was bordering on fcuking corruption. 

We think it’s bad up here with decades of corruption with the two arse cheeks. But it’s clear it also happens in the greatest league in the world. 

 

[Bobby_F]

17 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

Not sure what you're pursuing here.

I think any competent use of VAR would result in a penalty being given in the circumstances Dundee got theirs on Saturday. It was an obvious foul missed by the referee. There's nothing really to discuss.

The fact that VAR is shite is an entirely different issue.

I've seen a few St Mirren fans implying they were hard done by on Saturday by the officials. I think it's telling that in a game like St Mirren v Dundee where lots of people are genuinely not arsed who wins, almost nobody is agreeing with those claims here. Both decisions were fine.

I thought it was fairly obvious what I was saying - VAR doesn't give a penalty every time a player grabs another players shirt in the box.  Not that hard to understand.

On your second point, P&B I'd imagine has very few ex-referees or ex-pros, so I'll take the views of those in that group (who almost all said it was clearly a goal) than the P&B regulars.

[VincentGuerin]

5 minutes ago, Bobby_F said:

On your second point, P&B I'd imagine has very few ex-referees or ex-pros, so I'll take the views of those in that group (who almost all said it was clearly a goal) than the P&B regulars.

Do you think ex-referees or ex-pros have better eyes than anyone else in the world?

 

[Bobby_F]

3 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

Do you think ex-referees or ex-pros have better eyes than anyone else in the world?

 

Oh dear

[VincentGuerin]

4 minutes ago, Bobby_F said:

Oh dear

It's a serious question. Do you think judging whether a ball is definitely over a line requires some deep professional expertise?

Why would a ref or player be better at it than anyone else?

It's not a question of technical competence. It's looking at something and deciding where you think it is.

[Bobby_F]

4 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

It's a serious question. Do you think judging whether a ball is definitely over a line requires some deep professional expertise?

Why would a ref or player be better at it than anyone else?

It's not a question of technical competence. It's looking at something and deciding where you think it is.

I'd agree if we were looking at the offside lines VAR produces. 

We're not. 

We're looking at a period of play, and specifically because we don't have goal line technology people have to make a judgement - and I'd put more faith in people who've played or officiated in hundreds of top league games - felt the turf beneath their feet, smelled the grass - over a bunch of guys who's main experience is 5s or watching from their armchairs.

[Donathan]

There can’t be many leagues that use VAR without goal line technology. Both the English premier league and FIFA tournaments were using Hawkeye/goal control long before VAR came in. UEFA bizarrely decided that two extra assistant referees behind the goals were the solution.

 

Anyway, the corollary to this is that VAR wasn’t really intended so solve goal line disputes, because the technology for this already existed before VAR. I understand why Scottish clubs are reluctant to bring in goal line technology given the cost and the relative rarity of it being needed (let’s face it, 99.9% of goals hit the back of the net) but it should go hand in hand with VAR. 
 

I think there are two separate issues here

 

1) Ball crossed the goal line yes/no, ball went out of play yes/no, player was offside yes/no. These can be determined by technology and are matter of fact issues

 

2) Fouls leading to penalties/goals/violent conduct etc are matter of opinion, but I’m still of the view that referees can make better decisions with the benefit of being able to look at replays on the field. 
 

Personally I’d look to automate as much of it as possible to reduce the number of times the ref has to go to the monitor. 

[Dons_1988]

Just now, Bobby_F said:

I'd agree if we were looking at the offside lines VAR produces. 

We're not. 

We're looking at a period of play, and specifically because we don't have goal line technology people have to make a judgement - and I'd put more faith in people who've played or officiated in hundreds of top league games - felt the turf beneath their feet, smelled the grass - over a bunch of guys who's main experience is 5s or watching from their armchairs.

This is top level snobbery yet stupidity. I don’t think this is as good an argument as you think it is.