VAR in Scottish Football

[Dons_1988]

1 hour ago, Crùbag said:

The idea that if we remove cameras and monitors that our officials will suddenly become competent and impartial is ludicrous. 

Nobody is saying this.

What people are saying is that VAR damages the game fundamentally as a spectacle and does nothing to change the perception of incompetence or bias. It is therefore not fit for purpose. 

It’s actually mad that so much money is invested in something that doesn’t solve any of the problems it’s there to solve, and actively makes the game significantly worse. 

 

[CambieBud]

Over the last few weeks VAR has got involved in decisions that are marginal at best. It is supposed to get involved for clear and obvious errors. Livingston were on the receiving end of what should have been an overturned penalty against Rangers, which VAR chose to ignore the blatant dive by the wee NI player. Decisions have not improved with VAR, so bin it. 

[kingjoey]

15 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

VAR was always going to get bigger. Mind we were told it wouldn't be used after a game had re-started? Well, it is now. 

Where have you seen this? Because referees can’t go back after a game is restarted, caused the furore about the disallowed Liverpool, I think it was Liverpool, goal a few weeks back, when the referee and VAR team discovered they’d got an offside decision wrong but couldn’t change their decision because the game had restarted.

[VincentGuerin]

6 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

Where have you seen this? Because referees can’t go back after a game is restarted, caused the furore about the disallowed Liverpool, I think it was Liverpool, goal a few weeks back, when the referee and VAR team discovered they’d got an offside decision wrong but couldn’t change their decision because the game had restarted.

Burnley v Chelsea a few weeks ago was the first one. It was the Sterling goal, I believe.  The Premier League told journalists the week prior (after the Spurs - Liverpool incident) that this would now be allowed. Ref stopped play after it had re-started to allow the check to be finished.

Edited November 28, 2023 by VincentGuerin

[Swello]

2 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

The motivation is that it’s becoming increasingly clear how flawed VAR is and I think it’s now coming through from prominent journalists and pundits just how ineffective this system is. 

Unfortunately, as with just about any modern industry driven by profitability and growth, the answer will be more technology, more influence of that technology and reduce as much human error/input as feasibly possible.  It may seem obvious to you and I that this is a clearly bonkers response, but this is exactly how the thin end of the wedge gets more embedded. 

I think the correct term for what's happening now is "escalation of commitment" - where despite VAR being a negative overall, the folk who decided to bring it in (with f**k-all consultation) are doubling down on it with Expert Panels and all manner of shite rather than backing off.

The most concerning thing for me is that it has already crept way beyond it's initial purpose and is being (over-)relied on by on field referees and is getting involved in increasingly marginal stuff - stuff that was never intended to be objectively judged in the laws of the game.

In terms of over-reliance on technology - it was interesting in the Motherwell-Hearts game the other week where the referee delayed the start of the 2nd half for ages because his wee headset wasn't working. It was as if the game literally couldn't take place without it, which kind of sums up where we are.

[Dons_1988]

18 minutes ago, Swello said:

I think the correct term for what's happening now is "escalation of commitment" - where despite VAR being a negative overall, the folk who decided to bring it in (with f**k-all consultation) are doubling down on it with Expert Panels and all manner of shite rather than backing off.

The most concerning thing for me is that it has already crept way beyond it's initial purpose and is being (over-)relied on by on field referees and is getting involved in increasingly marginal stuff - stuff that was never intended to be objectively judged in the laws of the game.

In terms of over-reliance on technology - it was interesting in the Motherwell-Hearts game the other week where the referee delayed the start of the 2nd half for ages because his wee headset wasn't working. It was as if the game literally couldn't take place without it, which kind of sums up where we are.

I think the bigger fundamental problem is that it’s never been clearly enough defined what it is meant to be involved in. 

‘Clear and obvious’ is a very subjective term in itself, and just adds a layer of judgement to decision making. You have the question of ‘is it a foul?’ plus if it possibly is, how certain are you to contradict the on field decision?

Thats two different people making two different judgements in a short space of time and often with incomplete evidence. 

The result will be inconsistency, errors and even more argument because there’s a belief VAR should stop all of this. 

And I don’t believe any amount of technology (at this point anyway) can solve that. 

[kingjoey]

41 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

Burnley v Chelsea a few weeks ago was the first one. It was the Sterling goal, I believe.  The Premier League told journalists the week prior (after the Spurs - Liverpool incident) that this would now be allowed. Ref stopped play after it had re-started to allow the check to be finished.

I didn’t see that incident, but don’t know how that could have been allowed to happen. That’s outwith the VAR guidelines.

[VincentGuerin]

Just now, kingjoey said:

I didn’t see that incident, but don’t know how that could have been allowed to happen. That’s outwith the VAR guidelines.

It is. But the Premier League don't seem to care. Can't see what consequences they'll face for it.

And, if we're going to have VAR, then it's hard to justify not stopping the game if they notice something when it's restarted. Delay and disruption is already built in, and considered worth it as part of the sacred pursuit of accuracy, so with all that in mind, stopping once restarted was always going to become part of the game.

Same as checks expanding to include essentially all decisions is an inevitability.

[kingjoey]

14 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

It is. But the Premier League don't seem to care. Can't see what consequences they'll face for it.

And, if we're going to have VAR, then it's hard to justify not stopping the game if they notice something when it's restarted. Delay and disruption is already built in, and considered worth it as part of the sacred pursuit of accuracy, so with all that in mind, stopping once restarted was always going to become part of the game.

Same as checks expanding to include essentially all decisions is an inevitability.

I totally agree.

[Busta Nut]

Firstly "Clear and obvious" is a myth, every wee detail is checked. The only time I've seen "clear and obvious" play and part is when the excuse "it wasn't clear and obvious the ref had made a mistake/missed something"

Secondly I don't fancy sitting in Fir Park until 6pm.

[Crùbag]

2 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

Nobody is saying this.

What people are saying is that VAR damages the game fundamentally as a spectacle and does nothing to change the perception of incompetence or bias. It is therefore not fit for purpose. 

It’s actually mad that so much money is invested in something that doesn’t solve any of the problems it’s there to solve, and actively makes the game significantly worse. 

 

Don't agree. Steps need taken to improve it but it can add to the spectacle and excitement in a game.

As to money, I'm not sure what the costs are but they're probably dwarfed by what clubs spend on wages, esp the Ugly Sisters.

I'd concentrate on the officials. Train them better, make them accountable and weed out any biased ones.

 

[Crùbag]

The problem:

[Dons_1988]

3 minutes ago, Crùbag said:

Don't agree. Steps need taken to improve it but it can add to the spectacle and excitement in a game.

 

Yeah, we’ll never ever agree on that. 

 

2 minutes ago, Crùbag said:

The problem:

And this pish is exactly how we end up with VAR. 

[andrewh]

37 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

Secondly I don't fancy sitting in Fir Park until 6pm.

My thoughts exactly, especially in winter.

[VincentGuerin]

10 minutes ago, Crùbag said:

Don't agree. Steps need taken to improve it but it can add to the spectacle and excitement in a game.

As to money, I'm not sure what the costs are but they're probably dwarfed by what clubs spend on wages, esp the Ugly Sisters.

I'd concentrate on the officials. Train them better, make them accountable and weed out any biased ones.

 

I've never seen any evidence of this. Our penalty against Hibs at Tynecastle last season was one of the least satisfying derby goals ever, for example. A total farce that sucked the life out of the ground.

And, using VAR won't only require training refs as you request, it'll involve training loads more of them and somehow finding loads more who are better than the ones we have now. Since VAR requires more officials.

You're saying the ones we have now are rubbish, so let's spread the talent pool more thinly and hope things improve. It's just not realistic.

Edited November 28, 2023 by VincentGuerin

[well again]

7 minutes ago, Crùbag said:

The problem:

I didn't realise that Clancy, Collum and Robertson are in the orange order.

[HibeeJibee]

8 hours ago, Swello said:

I think the correct term for what's happening now is "escalation of commitment" - where despite VAR being a negative overall, the folk who decided to bring it in (with f**k-all consultation) are doubling down on it with Expert Panels and all manner of shite rather than backing off.

The most concerning thing for me is that it has already crept way beyond it's initial purpose and is being (over-)relied on by on field referees and is getting involved in increasingly marginal stuff - stuff that was never intended to be objectively judged in the laws of the game.

In terms of over-reliance on technology - it was interesting in the Motherwell-Hearts game the other week where the referee delayed the start of the 2nd half for ages because his wee headset wasn't working. It was as if the game literally couldn't take place without it, which kind of sums up where we are.

Precisely.

"Sunk-cost fallacy"
+
"Cognitive dissonance"
+
"Mission creep"

It's going exactly as predicted... (1) rather than reducing it's just amplifying discord about 'wrong' / 'bad' decisions; (2) to compensate they're taking longer and trying to be more precise, but it's not actually working, thus is actually making matters worse; (3) their solution to VAR not working is to have more VAR.

[Willie adie]

[Crùbag]

21 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

I've never seen any evidence of this. Our penalty against Hibs at Tynecastle last season was one of the least satisfying derby goals ever, for example. A total farce that sucked the life out of the ground.

And, using VAR won't only require training refs as you request, it'll involve training loads more of them and somehow finding loads more who are better than the ones we have now. Since VAR requires more officials.

You're saying the ones we have now are rubbish, so let's spread the talent pool more thinly and hope things improve. It's just not realistic.

 

Heh! I loved that. The Hibees thought the goal was disallowed but they ended up getting punished for an infringement prior to it. A bùrach, aye, as goal should have stood - i.e. with the play on rule - but great entertainment.

 

I don't get your last point - scrap VAR and refs?

Maybe I'm missed a huge swathe of this thread but if people think VAR will be scrapped then they will be disappointed. The only options we have are to get better trained and unbiased officials officiating in all areas of a game. That, and more transparency - i.e. why are some shirt pulls in the box flagged up by VAR and not others?

[bennett]

13 hours ago, Willie adie said:

You have to admire how celtic fans ignore the decisions that celtic get, while setting the Sevco get every decision going narrative. 

 

Outstanding stuff.