VAR in Scottish Football

[AJF]

41 minutes ago, Ric said:

Loving the hate my comments are getting.

 

 

 

 

 

As someone that is seemingly pro-VAR, do you enjoy watching football more now since its introduction?

Edited October 28, 2022 by AJF

[Ric]

40 minutes ago, AJF said:

As someone that is seemingly pro-VAR, do you enjoy watching football more now since its introduction?

More than I did before? Not necessarily "enjoy" but there is an added comfort knowing absolutely wild decisions given for 'certain teams' will no longer be the case.

So, to answer, a little but in the round, not specifically.

[CoF]

1 hour ago, Dunning1874 said:

The ideal solution would be to just bin VAR and not use it, but if we must have it the offside rule has to be changed to be weighted far more in favour of attackers. They're only offside if their whole body is beyond the last defender. That still stops some poacher hanging about two yards behind the defence and forcing every defence to sit ridiculously deep, but avoids penalising attackers for making perfectly good runs.

I get your thinking, but that’s just going to frame the exact same problem in a different way. Rather putting the attackers leading foot under the microscope, it’ll be their trailing foot.  

[AJF]

34 minutes ago, Ric said:

More than I did before? Not necessarily "enjoy" but there is an added comfort knowing absolutely wild decisions given for 'certain teams' will no longer be the case.

So, to answer, a little but in the round, not specifically.

So, if we take out any conspiracy theories regarding 'certain teams'. You play 9 matches per round of fixtures that don't include the teams I assume you are referring to.

9 fixtures out of 11, you will have no requirement for "added comfort" as you call it. So, do you believe those matches will be a better or worse experience with VAR?

[Insert Amusing Pseudonym]

On 27/10/2022 at 12:26, Steve McQueen said:

Clear and obvious is only meant for subjective calls, offside is not subjective.

Think this is offside but it's so close & also was played onto the Sporting player 1st.

Offside is subjective in certain aspects though.  Whether a player is in an offside position is not.  Whether they are called offside can be affected by whether they are deemed to be active/passive, whether they are deemed to be interfering with the ability of another player to play the ball and by the actions of a defender being deemed to be deliberate or not in playing the ball.

The techology used to determine whether a player is even in an offside position isn't even that accurate, and its application has 100% made the game worse

 

[Dons_1988]

Thought about returning to this thread but then you see @Rics take on it and it’s incredibly sad and infuriating to see these fans exist. 

Too soon I think. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

4 hours ago, 10menwent2mow said:

This is the thing though, even those that are pro VAR, fans, players, managers, are still whining about it.  All it's done is given them a different cloud to yell at. Find me a manager or player that's been on the end of a contentious VAR decision that's just turned round and accepted it and gone 

'you know what, the VAR is right and I'm glad we've got it so it comes to the correct decision. Never mind this one, at least we can be safe in the knowledge the correct decision was reached and when something similar happens we will get the correct decision made in our favour. It's worth some decisions going against us because at least the correct decision is being made.'

Martindale.

Not sure it was contentious right enough, it was given as a yellow card foul, but VAR got it upgraded to a red, and although it split our fans on whether it was correct or not, i'm on the side of those thinking it was. 

Martindale didn't even question it though, so in that respect he was still happy to have VAR even though the first VAR big decision went against his team and prob cost us getting all 3 pts against Sevco.

5 minutes ago, AJF said:

So, if we take out any conspiracy theories regarding 'certain teams'. You play 9 matches per round of fixtures that don't include the teams I assume you are referring to.

9 fixtures out of 11, you will have no requirement for "added comfort" as you call it. So, do you believe those matches will be a better or worse experience with VAR?

There's only been one round of fixture under VAR, maybe need to wait for the first round of 11 fixtures with it in place before asking him that question.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

1 minute ago, Dons_1988 said:

Thought about returning to this thread but then you see @Rics take on it and it’s incredibly sad and infuriating to see these fans exist. 

Too soon I think. 

Compare yourself to Jesus. That might make you feel better.

[LIVIFOREVER]

3 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:

Compare yourself to Jesus. That might make you feel better.

Aye but how many red dots did Jesus get, the lightweight only got crucified on a cross.

[AJF]

4 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Martindale.

Not sure it was contentious right enough, it was given as a yellow card foul, but VAR got it upgraded to a red, and although it split our fans on whether it was correct or not, i'm on the side of those thinking it was. 

Martindale didn't even question it though, so in that respect he was still happy to have VAR even though the first VAR big decision went against his team and prob cost us getting all 3 pts against Sevco.

There's only been one round of fixture under VAR, maybe need to wait for the first round of 11 fixtures with it in place before asking him that question.

Sorry, I was probably assuming they'd draw on their experiences of watching other matches using VAR to form that opinion (EPL, Champions League, Europa League, the Euros) so they could take away the conspiracy theory aspect of it.

[Ric]

12 minutes ago, AJF said:

So, if we take out any conspiracy theories ...

I am not talking conspiracy theories here, I have watched referees give "phantom" decisions which were very clearly proven to be wrong upon watching replays. The very first set of VAR fixtures included a decision to not award a penalty only for VAR to correct that decision within a minute or two, a decision that couldn't have been addressed in that manner before VAR. The correct decision was given, it has shown to be a benefit in that instance.

15 minutes ago, AJF said:

So, do you believe those matches will be a better or worse experience with VAR?

"will be", yes, at least it won't be worse; "currently is", no, it needs time to sort itself out.

I find the whole "We must remove VAR immediately" to be a massive over reaction. I'm not demanding people should like it, but it's just been introduced. How can it be improved to the point that people don't have issues with it if you simply drop it straight away. That's not taking into the consideration it was voted for by the clubs, and the same clubs have had some financial outlay.

What's more I believe VAR is being maligned down to the rules it's implementing. If the rules are that a person is an inch over given a position they are considered offside. It's hardly the fault of VAR that it has precision to an inch. Address the rules, not the technology, and you will invariably improve VAR at the same time.

[Ric]

11 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Thought about returning to this thread but then you see @Rics take on it and it’s incredibly sad and infuriating to see these fans exist. 

Too soon I think. 

Do you think your club, who voted for VAR, is equally sad and infuriating?

To me, the intransigence of those stuck in the past, searching for some lost halcyon days of football, is disappointing.

 

9 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:

Compare yourself to Jesus. That might make you feel better.

It's called a meme, RB, you might have come across them before...

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/most-people-rejected-his-message

Edited October 28, 2022 by Ric

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 minute ago, AJF said:

Sorry, I was probably assuming they'd draw on their experiences of watching other matches using VAR to form that opinion (EPL, Champions League, Europa League, the Euros) so they could take away the conspiracy theory aspect of it.

Just speaking for myself watching other games that don't involve my team, i don't really care the same, also watching it on the telly isn't the same as being in the ground, so you aren't really getting the full frustration sitting waiting on a decision. Prob not even knowing what's going on.

My first proper experience will be this Sunday at home against Celtic, i wasn't at Ibrox for our first VAR game, i'll know more how i feel after experiencing it proper.

[AJF]

1 minute ago, Ric said:

I am not talking conspiracy theories here, I have watched referees give "phantom" decisions which were very clearly proven to be wrong upon watching replays. The very first set of VAR fixtures included a decision to not award a penalty only for VAR to correct that decision within a minute or two, a decision that couldn't have been addressed in that manner before VAR. The correct decision was given, it has shown to be a benefit in that instance.

"will be", yes, at least it won't be worse; "currently is", no, it needs time to sort itself out.

I find the whole "We must remove VAR immediately" to be a massive over reaction. I'm not demanding people should like it, but it's just been introduced. How can it be improved to the point that people don't have issues with it if you simply drop it straight away. That's not taking into the consideration it was voted for by the clubs, and the same clubs have had some financial outlay.

What's more I believe VAR is being maligned down to the rules it's implementing. If the rules are that a person is an inch over given a position they are considered offside. It's hardly the fault of VAR that it has precision to an inch. Address the rules, not the technology, and you will invariably improve VAR at the same time.

You are absolutely talking about conspiracy theories when you imply only 'certain teams' benefit from poor officiating.

VAR has been in use for years... the fact it has only just been introduced in Scotland doesn't mean we need to wait and see how it goes here before forming an opinion on it. And as I said, my opinion is that as a consumer, I attend matches and watch football on the TV to be entertained. VAR is making the product less appealing to me, regardless if it means we eventually arrive at more correct decisions, which are still sometimes debatable.

So when you say it needs time to sort itself out, it's not been sorted out in the years it has already been in use elsewhere.

[AJF]

3 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Just speaking for myself watching other games that don't involve my team, i don't really care the same, also watching it on the telly isn't the same as being in the ground, so you aren't really getting the full frustration sitting waiting on a decision. Prob not even knowing what's going on.

My first proper experience will be this Sunday at home against Celtic, i wasn't at Ibrox for our first VAR game, i'll know more how i feel after experiencing it proper.

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't expect you'd care the same watching "neutral" games, nor do I. But I'd still say that the spectacle is worse off than pre-VAR days. Whether that is in the stadium or watching on TV.

[LIVIFOREVER]

11 minutes ago, AJF said:

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't expect you'd care the same watching "neutral" games, nor do I. But I'd still say that the spectacle is worse off than pre-VAR days. Whether that is in the stadium or watching on TV.

The ones down in England certainly are yep, the first season was a complete disaster, chopping off goals left right and centre, taking it to slide rule mm precisions, and an age to get it exactly right. I'm not completely against VAR as so much against how long a decision takes, if VAR means more decisions will be the correct one, and doesn't take all day making them, then great, it is better than what we had before.

Now we've got it and it isn't going anywhere, I'm willing to wait and see the first 11 sets of fixtures with it in use before making my mind up though, and not pre judging it on how other Countries have done.

Edited October 28, 2022 by LIVIFOREVER

[Ric]

Just now, AJF said:

You are absolutely talking about conspiracy theories when you imply only 'certain teams' benefit from poor officiating.

You are spinning that. That isn't what I said, there was no "only" qualifier.

However, in the broader point, shall I set up a poll to ask the rest of P&B whether the OF benefit from "highly debatable" refereeing decisions? I will if you want, but we both know what the result would be, so maybe this isn't the hill to die on.

Just now, AJF said:

VAR has been in use for years... the fact it has only just been introduced in Scotland doesn't mean we need to wait and see how it goes here before forming an opinion on it. And as I said, my opinion is that as a consumer, I attend matches and watch football on the TV to be entertained. VAR is making the product less appealing to me, regardless if it means we eventually arrive at more correct decisions, which are still sometimes debatable.

Scottish referees have only just started using it, so the experience we've had in Scotland should be put into that context.

As for the bold bit, I think that's where we will always disagree. A wrong decision is always a wrong decision, they absolutely do not "even themselves out over the season", there is no form of footballing karma. You might look upon sport as purely entertainment, but it's a sport governed by rules. Surely you remember your own club, who support VAR being introduced, clamouring for "sporting integrity"?

The issue clearly is to make VAR as less intrusive as possible, integrate it seamlessly. I keep saying this, it's not the technology being introduced that is at issue, it's absolutely not, it's how that implementation is handled.

[AJF]

9 minutes ago, Ric said:

You are spinning that. That isn't what I said, there was no "only" qualifier.

However, in the broader point, shall I set up a poll to ask the rest of P&B whether the OF benefit from "highly debatable" refereeing decisions? I will if you want, but we both know what the result would be, so maybe this isn't the hill to die on.

Saying 'certain teams' would benefit from poor officiating would be the exact same as saying only certain teams would benefit from poor officiating, surely? If you don't mean just certain teams only, then who do you actually mean?

You can create the poll all you like, I have no interest and it's not a hill I'm dying on. I was simply contesting your argument that the comfort of knowing these 'certain teams' wouldn't benefit would be a positive when the majority of your matches won't involve those 'certain teams'.

16 minutes ago, Ric said:

Scottish referees have only just started using it, so the experience we've had in Scotland should be put into that context.

As for the bold bit, I think that's where we will always disagree. A wrong decision is always a wrong decision, they absolutely do not "even themselves out over the season", there is no form of footballing karma. You might look upon sport as purely entertainment, but it's a sport governed by rules. Surely you remember your own club, who support VAR being introduced, clamouring for "sporting integrity"?

The issue clearly is to make VAR as less intrusive as possible, integrate it seamlessly. I keep saying this, it's not the technology being introduced that is at issue, it's absolutely not, it's how that implementation is handled.

I am not only talking about the experience in Scotland though. Football as a whole has become less appealing to me since the introduction of VAR. Why do we need context of VAR in Scottish football to form an opinion on VAR as a product? Why would VAR being operated in Scotland be any more appealing to me than VAR being operated elsewhere?

I did not state that decisions would even themselves out or that footballing karma existed. I simply said I'm willing to accept that my team may be on the end of wrong decisions if it meant that VAR was not in use. I've loved football for decades without VAR and a controversial decision adds to the entertainment in my opinion.

My club's opinion on this is irrelevant when I am giving you my opinion on it. Why does my stance on VAR need to be considered a contradiction just because the club I follow supports its introduction?

You cannot have VAR without it being intrusive. It's simply not possible.

[Dons_1988]

54 minutes ago, Ric said:

Do you think your club, who voted for VAR, is equally sad and infuriating?

Yes and I’ve told them, particularly the absence of engagement with their paying customers on the matter. 

I’m not really fussed if you think what I want from football is nostalgic or old fashioned. If this is really the way a majority of fans want the game to go then I’m on the wrong side of history. I’m quite happy to walk away from something I simply don’t enjoy anymore though. 

[Jacksgranda]

17 hours ago, Thenorthernlight said:

FIFY 

?