The Gender Debate

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, picklish said:

I'm largely perplexed why is it that gender dysphoria creates such polarisation, when e.g. functional disorders (just to pick at random a different, but more common mental health issue), where people also face prejudice, does not. What is it specifically that makes it a wedge issue, and engenders endless opinion columns, forum discussions and hot takes?

I don't think moral panics are organic. I think they're manufactured for political advantage. The current trans panic originated in USA. It has spread here so easily due to us sharing a language. The moment you leave the anglosphere, you find its not something folk are so interested in just now. Media is owned by extremely wealthy men who wish for the electorate to vote as much to the right as possible, against that electorate's own material interests. To get turkeys to vote for Christmas, you need to convince them politics is not about material interests but actually about metaphysics - abstract ideas, values, and identities. In USA we have seen in the last century how abortion went from being only the concern of a catholic minority to becoming the main concern of the vast evangelical protestant demographic. In 1972, more Republicans than Democrats in USA supported abortion*. Abortion panic only came about later due to  extraordinary amounts of money spent by oligarchs on disseminating it. 

*Source https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/otm-when-republicans-wanted-abortion-rights

Edited May 17, 2023 by FreedomFarter

[carpetmonster]

5 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

I don't think moral panics are organic. I think they're manufactured for political advantage. The current trans panic originated in USA. It has spread here so easily due to us sharing a language. The moment you leave the anglosphere, you find its not something folk are so interested in just now. Media is owned by extremely wealth men who wish for the electorate to vote as much to the right as possible, against that electorate's own material interests. To get turkeys to vote for Christmas, you need to convince them politics is not about material interests but actually about metaphysics - abstract ideas, values, and identities. In USA we have seen in the last century how abortion went from being only the concern of a catholic minority in USA to becoming the main concern of the vast evangelical protestant demographic. In 1972, more Republicans than Democrats in USA supported abortion*. Abortion panic only came about later due to  extraordinary amounts of money spent by oligarchs on disseminating it. 

*Source https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/otm-when-republicans-wanted-abortion-rights

In this case, specifically when the GOP lost the argument on same-sex marriage, with an acceleration due to the unpopularity of Roe V Wade being struck down - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/16/us/politics/transgender-conservative-campaign.html

[picklish]

Fair points. It feels somehow different than other manufactured moral panics, e.g. people crossing the channel in boats doesn't create the same strength of feeling, or protests, and it's not just innumerable column inches but animated discussions everywhere from Bangface raves, to YouTube physicists, to Scottish football forums.

It seems to me more organic somehow, the need to have an opinion on it is pervasive, and the genuine almost psychosis it causes in the likes of Graham Linehan and Stuart Campbell is mind boggling. Although as I can't put my finger on exactly why I think it seems more organic than other moral panics, it makes me think maybe I'm blinded to the subtleties of the propaganda.

[f_c_dundee]

14 hours ago, TxRover said:

Fair enough, it was a flippant response on the age of the dictionary…

Madison Bentley defined gender as the “socialized obverse of sex” in 1945.

John Money introduced gender identity in 1955.

The American Physiological Society officially adopted the term into a title in 1982.

Are you actually mentioning John Money on purpose?

Anyone who has read what he did to those boys would surely want fk all to do with his opinions and invented concepts. His theory that you could give a child (who had been  given a botched circumcision ) a female "gender identity" by raising them as a girl quite clearly *did not work*. That's not even mentioning the detail of what he did with the boys in "therapy" FFS.

 

Sex and gender are clearly different words. Sex is what is relevant in quite a lot of cases. It's not assigned at birth, it's observed at birth, or in many cases before birth.

This applies to the vast majority of humans born, a miniscule minority may have ambiguous genitalia due to a DSD, but almost every one of those are male or female. DSDs are almost all specific to males or females.  There is no 3rd sex. 

People unhappy in their bodies, adult or child deserve support and they deserve to be protected from discrimination, as they are in the UK by law. We don't have to all pretend we have a gender identity too though, or accept every single person as the sex they declare, in every situation, no matter what. That's not a human right, that's a demand.

 

PS - I bet you did see the fact the that the guy with the 'weapon' was rolling up an extendable flag pole, it was pictured a few tweets down. And didn't mention that harmonica boy was right up in women's faces with his tuneless protest.

Yes the speeches are brutal, some women have taken their teenagers along. I've not seen any little kids there though. 

9 hours ago, picklish said:

 

 

[picklish]

I've wondered if legislating for a 3rd sex would help defuse the tensions - it would allow 'woman' to remain as a protected characteristic, but also give a clear status on rights for trans/non-binary and intersex folk.

It'd obviously be a bit of a fudge as I think neither side would be completely happy, neither would workplaces and business if it cost money, but I don't know if it'd be worse than the situation now.

There's a lack of willingness to understand and ascribe charitable readings to either side - it seems unimaginable to some people that an abuse survivor in a support group could have their recovery hampered by the group allowing trans women, or alternatively unimaginable to others that being treated as the gender that someone feels can help someone.

So I think viewing it as a top down conspiracy, talking about who funds what, is unhelpful - looking at it bottom up seems more useful as it helps to humanise both sides.

 

 

 

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[carpetmonster]

5 hours ago, f_c_dundee said:

Are you actually mentioning John Money on purpose?

Anyone who has read what he did to those boys would surely want fk all to do with his opinions and invented concepts. His theory that you could give a child (who had been  given a botched circumcision ) a female "gender identity" by raising them as a girl quite clearly *did not work*. That's not even mentioning the detail of what he did with the boys in "therapy" FFS.

 

Sex and gender are clearly different words. Sex is what is relevant in quite a lot of cases. It's not assigned at birth, it's observed at birth, or in many cases before birth.

This applies to the vast majority of humans born, a miniscule minority may have ambiguous genitalia due to a DSD, but almost every one of those are male or female. DSDs are almost all specific to males or females.  There is no 3rd sex. 

People unhappy in their bodies, adult or child deserve support and they deserve to be protected from discrimination, as they are in the UK by law. We don't have to all pretend we have a gender identity too though, or accept every single person as the sex they declare, in every situation, no matter what. That's not a human right, that's a demand.

 

PS - I bet you did see the fact the that the guy with the 'weapon' was rolling up an extendable flag pole, it was pictured a few tweets down. And didn't mention that harmonica boy was right up in women's faces with his tuneless protest.

Yes the speeches are brutal, some women have taken their teenagers along. I've not seen any little kids there though. 

 

You should probably tell the cops that then - https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/man-arrested-carrying-offensive-weapon-26935143

[MrWorldwideJr]

1 hour ago, picklish said:

I've wondered if legislating for a 3rd sex would help defuse the tensions - it would allow 'woman' to remain as a protected characteristic, but also give a clear status on rights for trans/non-binary and intersex folk.

It'd obviously be a bit of a fudge as I think neither side would be completely happy, neither would workplaces and business if it cost money, but I don't know if it'd be worse than the situation now.

There's a lack of willingness to understand and ascribe charitable readings to either side - it seems unimaginable to some people that an abuse survivor in a support group could have their recovery hampered by the group allowing trans women, or alternatively unimaginable to others that being treated as the gender that someone feels can help someone.

So I think viewing it as a top down conspiracy, talking about who funds what, is unhelpful - looking at it bottom up seems more useful as it helps to humanise both sides.

 

 

 

Subscribe to my newsletter for opinions on a 3-state solution for Israel/Palestine and how to solve the AI alignment problem 

I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh, because you're clearly not coming at this maliciously. But I find 'sensible centre ground' takes on trans people, such as this one, incredibly frustrating for a number of reasons.

1. They always involve allusions to the idea that both sides of the 'trans debate' are as bad as each other and that either side getting what they are fighting for would be equally harmful, which just isn't true.

2. They usually involve outright denial of the idea that the current trans panic is an organised and targeted attack by powerful people on a powerless minority. Instead they frame it as a simple group of good citizens who have organically come up with legmitimate concerns about trans people with no encouragement from any outside source. Again this just isn't true.

3. The solution almost always involves giving the anti-trans lobby pretty much exactly what they want but framing it as a straight down the middle compromise.

 

What you're proposing above involves trans people losing rights that they currently have and have had for decades. Its not a compromise solution.

 

[TxRover]

7 hours ago, f_c_dundee said:

Are you actually mentioning John Money on purpose? …

…Sex and gender are clearly different words. Sex is what is relevant in quite a lot of cases. It's not assigned at birth, it's observed at birth, or in many cases before birth….

I mentioned John Money because his was the accepted first reference in that particular field, in 1955 and in that manner. The poster I was responding to enquired when sex and gender were differentiated as they were surprised it was when I provided the dictionary definitions of them. There was no endorsement of Money’s “studies” or actions, and none should be assumed. It’s sort of like mentioning Hitler in a discussion of the Nazi Party….distasteful but necessary.

[picklish]

56 minutes ago, MrWorldwideJr said:

I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh, because you're clearly not coming at this maliciously. But I find 'sensible centre ground' takes on trans people, such as this one, incredibly frustrating for a number of reasons.

1. They always involve allusions to the idea that both sides of the 'trans debate' are as bad as each other and that either side getting what they are fighting for would be equally harmful, which just isn't true.

2. They usually involve outright denial of the idea that the current trans panic is an organised and targeted attack by powerful people on a powerless minority. Instead they frame it as a simple group of good citizens who have organically come up with legmitimate concerns about trans people with no encouragement from any outside source. Again this just isn't true.

3. The solution almost always involves giving the anti-trans lobby pretty much exactly what they want but framing it as a straight down the middle compromise.

 

What you're proposing above involves trans people losing rights that they currently have and have had for decades. Its not a compromise solution.

 

I'm not worried about people telling me my thinking is shit - I don't have a connection to either side, except knowing people who are very much one side or ther other, and despite reading tons on the situation, I'm none the wiser about a lot of aspects, so have at it, I won't get offended.

I have got more questions, but right now I have to work

[RuMoore]

 

This story is absolutely horrific. 

It's really frustrating to see how people on "both sides" of the debate weaponize stories. 

It is a fact that presenting as a female helped this nonce c**t commit this unforgivable act however Cherry and other grifters are acting like this person opportunistically decided to dress up as a woman to do this which is bullshit considering they presented as a female for about 6 years prior to their diabolical actions. 

[ICTChris]

The details of that case are absolutely appalling. The starting point for such a crime should be a life sentence. It’s hard to imagine a more premeditated, deprived act against a child, someone inherently vulnerable.

The truth is that him presenting as a woman during the kidnapping is pertinent to the case. The victim said during her testimony that she got into the car because she the considered the lady driving it unthreatening. When arrested the Miller creature claimed he was being “motherly”.

He may have presented as a woman for several years prior to his crime but the way these offenders work is that the fantasy would have built up over time. He was also convicted of possession of child pornography which he showed the victim while abusing her. He doubtless escalated and built up the infrastructure of the fantasy in his mind while consuming this material. He prepared his house to hold a prisoner. I doubt that the abduction was the first time he went out looking for this. The fact that he was dressed as a woman is part of this fantasy, part of the thrill. It’s only due to good luck and the bravery of his victim that Miller didn’t get the chance to become another Robert Black, who behaved in a very similar way in the same part of the world a few decades ago.

[RuMoore]

29 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

The details of that case are absolutely appalling. The starting point for such a crime should be a life sentence. It’s hard to imagine a more premeditated, deprived act against a child, someone inherently vulnerable.

The truth is that him presenting as a woman during the kidnapping is pertinent to the case. The victim said during her testimony that she got into the car because she the considered the lady driving it unthreatening. When arrested the Miller creature claimed he was being “motherly”.

He may have presented as a woman for several years prior to his crime but the way these offenders work is that the fantasy would have built up over time. He was also convicted of possession of child pornography which he showed the victim while abusing her. He doubtless escalated and built up the infrastructure of the fantasy in his mind while consuming this material. He prepared his house to hold a prisoner. I doubt that the abduction was the first time he went out looking for this. The fact that he was dressed as a woman is part of this fantasy, part of the thrill. It’s only due to good luck and the bravery of his victim that Miller didn’t get the chance to become another Robert Black, who behaved in a very similar way in the same part of the world a few decades ago.

I agree with all of this, I'm pretty sure your post wasn't aimed at mine in particular and I don't want to seem like I'm rallying against your post but the point I was making that seemed pertinent was that this person has presented publically as female for a long time. It isn't a sudden development. 

Of course long term escalation type psychology is at play, as you say the way the house was modified and local knowledge points to behaviour that would imply this person was prone or vulnerable to such behaviour prior to this incident which is of course legally speculative but I think when Cherry and others online try and say this person has only decided to transition after the fact it should be challenged as that's not accurate. 

[Boo Khaki]

Cherry talking utter pish yet again. This individual has been known locally to be a total wrong'un for decades. He sexually assaulted two personal friends of mine, and tales abound of his behaviours to multiple others. All of this happened well before he ever started roleplaying a woman. He is a serial predatory abuser who continued his behaviours after he started dressing openly as a woman. To say that 'pretending to be a woman' enabled his abusive behaviour is complete and utter tripe. Call him what he is - a known abusive male who is also clearly AGP. It's not any more profound than that.

[Boo Khaki]

2 hours ago, ICTChris said:

The truth is that him presenting as a woman during the kidnapping is pertinent to the case. The victim said during her testimony that she got into the car because she the considered the lady driving it unthreatening. When arrested the Miller creature claimed he was being “motherly”.

The fact is the victim had known Miller for years, so why she considered the driver unthreatening is entirely open to speculation. You can't say for certain it was purely because a 'lady' was driving, but that will be the suggestion from Cherry and her ilk.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Boo Khaki

[ICTChris]

7 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

The fact is the victim had known Miller for years, so why she considered the driver unthreatening is entirely open to speculation. You can't say for certain it was purely because a 'lady' was driving, but that will be the suggestion from Cherry and her ilk.

The reporting published on the case says that the victim was not known to Miller before the abduction and that she told the police that she thought the lady driving was unthreatening. 

[Boo Khaki]

3 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

The reporting published on the case says that the victim was not known to Miller before the abduction and that she told the police that she thought the lady driving was unthreatening. 

The reporting is wrong then.

As I said, I know people intimately familiar with both victim and perp.

I will say though, it's entirely plausible that they are reporting honestly if they are implying the child was unfamiliar with Miller's female persona, however, that's dependent on the assumption that the girl didn't realise the 'lady' was Miller at the point where he abducted her.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Boo Khaki

[DeeTillEhDeh]

8 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

The reporting is wrong then.

As I said, I know people intimately familiar with both victim and perp.

I will say though, it's entirely plausible that they are reporting honestly if they are implying the child was unfamiliar with Miller's female persona, however, that's dependent on the assumption that the girl didn't realise the 'lady' was Miller at the point where he abducted her.

It doesn't actually matter either way in terms of gender recognition.

Even without GR, Miller would still have done what he did.

A beast is going to beast no matter the law.

Edited May 19, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[vikingTON]

29 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

A beast is going to beast no matter the law.

Lol wut

Might as well throw out enhanced disclosure, legally required safeguarding and all other preventive measures - as Nothing Can Possibly Be Done to minimise the risk of harm to vulnerable groups. 

[Wee Bully]

Just now, virginton said:

Lol wut

Might as well throw out enhanced disclosure, legally required safeguarding and all other preventive measures - as Nothing Can Possibly Be Done to minimise the risk of harm to vulnerable groups. 

Not what he said, or what the argument is. 
 

But you are still edgy! Keep on trucking! 

[Theroadlesstravelled]

Biden’s wrong’un pal Sam Brinton has been arrested on yet another charge of stealing luggage.

This them should be put on a no fly watchlist, or put in prison.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Theroadlesstravelled