Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Guest]

6 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

Also, Criticism of Trumps avoidance of the draft invariably misses the point. If the US hadn’t gotten involved in the first place there would have been no unequal draft system with loopholes that allowed those who were wealthy to avoid it. 

Absolutely but the reason many Americans remain supportive of their nation's imperialism is because they mistakenly think they personally benefit from it. 

As our boy Parenti put it:

"Empires are enormously profitable, mostly for the ruling class. Empires are also enormously costly, mostly for the common populace. The people of Rome didn't do too well on the empire, they got a grain dole and that was it. They often paid the price in blood and that's the truth in every empire. The empire feeds off the resources of the republic".

We want to get to the stage where everyone understands that. For me, bringing up that Trump could draft dodge due to being ruling class is a useful first step in that conversation. It's an entry point for the uninitiated. 

[Sweet Pete]

Seems a few of the main US fundraisers for the Ukrainian foreign legion have been telling porky pies about their backgrounds, military service and where the donations go.

https://t.co/ocf7exIJzn

I mentioned this a while back and was accused by a US poster on here of being a Russian troll who's been playing the long game by signing up for this website in the early 2000s, so let me just state for the avoidance of doubt that I have no opinion either way, nor any preferred Eastern European nation. I'm simply intrigued by this story which has been unfolding piece by piece (mainly tweet by tweet) for many months now, which is finally coming together.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Sweet Pete

[TxRover]

5 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

Seems a few of the main US fundraisers for the Ukrainian foreign legion have been telling porky pies about their backgrounds, military service and where the donations go.

https://t.co/ocf7exIJzn

I mentioned this a while back and was accused by a US poster on here of being a Russian troll who's been playing the long game by signing up for this website in the early 2000s, so let me just state for the avoidance of doubt that I have no opinion either way, nor any preferred Eastern European nation. I'm simply intrigued by this story which has been unfolding piece by piece (mainly tweet by tweet) for many months now, which is finally coming together.

Oh, fund raising as a whole is a lucrative racket for some, especially those focusing on foreign causes. The funds going out of view makes it incredibly easy to divert, while domestic causes that don’t see some action/spending tend to draw attention. The most lucrative of these domestic fundraisers, at least in terms of longevity and mass of money taken, is the sub-genre of “police/sheriff” fund raising. It’s a nasty little fact that the companies running these “fund raisers” tend to keep 80% of funds pledged, PLUS expenses. The departments involved see a little bit of money in exchange for letting their names be used, so it’s a win for them too. The people get a little sticker for their car that says they gave to X police fund raiser and the hope it’ll be the difference between a warning and a ticket.

On the foreign fund raisers in the U.S., they are probably legal as long as some small proportion of the funds eventually sees its way to Ukraine. It’s blooming disheartening.

3 hours ago, virginton said:

Peace in our time, eh?

[vikingTON]

Nothing confirms ignorance of history quite like equating every different geopolitical situation under the sun to the Munich Agreement.

You didn't disappoint. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Sweet Pete said:

Seems a few of the main US fundraisers for the Ukrainian foreign legion have been telling porky pies about their backgrounds, military service and where the donations go.

https://t.co/ocf7exIJzn

I mentioned this a while back and was accused by a US poster on here of being a Russian troll who's been playing the long game by signing up for this website in the early 2000s, so let me just state for the avoidance of doubt that I have no opinion either way, nor any preferred Eastern European nation. I'm simply intrigued by this story which has been unfolding piece by piece (mainly tweet by tweet) for many months now, which is finally coming together.

I like the guy who solicited $16K to buy a motorbike for riding into battle on. 

[Sweet Pete]

2 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

I like the guy who solicited $16K to buy a motorbike for riding into battle on. 

I'm currently raising $120,000 to buy a Roomba cordless vacuum cleaner to ride into battle on. I pinky promise all funds will be used for the betterment of Ukraine. You can trust me, I'm a Christian.

[ICTChris]

Russia has said it will deploy tactical nuclear weapons to Belarus in the summer. Construction of housing units and training of forces will begin soon, Putin has said.

NATO and the US have said they haven’t changed any of their assessments of the likelihood of Russian using nuclear weapons.

One thing is that Russian nuclear rhetoric has been ramped up around the time of battlefield losses in the war - Putin made statements about nukes after the successful Ukrainian offensive in Kharkiv last September. Perhaps related is the apparent reduction in Russian attacks on Bakhmut, with some y intelligence agencies claiming the Russian attacks there are culminating. Russia also seems to have stopped trying to take Vuhledar, where several relatively high quality units of Russian troops have taken heavy losses of men and equipment. Could be we are at the end of the Russian winter offensive. 

[TxRover]

7 hours ago, ICTChris said:

Russia has said it will deploy tactical nuclear weapons to Belarus in the summer. Construction of housing units and training of forces will begin soon, Putin has said.

NATO and the US have said they haven’t changed any of their assessments of the likelihood of Russian using nuclear weapons.

One thing is that Russian nuclear rhetoric has been ramped up around the time of battlefield losses in the war - Putin made statements about nukes after the successful Ukrainian offensive in Kharkiv last September. Perhaps related is the apparent reduction in Russian attacks on Bakhmut, with some y intelligence agencies claiming the Russian attacks there are culminating. Russia also seems to have stopped trying to take Vuhledar, where several relatively high quality units of Russian troops have taken heavy losses of men and equipment. Could be we are at the end of the Russian winter offensive. 

Nukes into Belarus means that Putin has essentially gained control over Belarus.

[TxRover]

16 hours ago, virginton said:

Nothing confirms ignorance of history quite like equating every different geopolitical situation under the sun to the Munich Agreement.

You didn't disappoint. 

So suggesting that agreeing to a Chinese proposal that leaves Russia in possession of Ukrainian territory in exchange for “peace” is COMPLETELY different than agreeing that Germany can take Sudetenland in exchange for “peace”, eh? I’m beginning to suspect your supposed knowledge of history might be as much a fantasy as your economic knowledge.

[vikingTON]

3 minutes ago, TxRover said:

So suggesting that agreeing to a Chinese proposal that leaves Russia in possession of Ukrainian territory in exchange for “peace” is COMPLETELY different than agreeing that Germany can take Sudetenland in exchange for “peace”, eh? I’m beginning to suspect your supposed knowledge of history might be as much a fantasy as your economic knowledge.

The Chinese haven't set out final conditions for a peace settlement, they've made an initiative to set initial terms from which a peace deal can be reached by negotiation of both parties. Which has been greeted with hysterical tears and snotters from NATO, which is too busy trying to ramp up Western public support for another forever war. 

The Munich Conference did not even have the subject state or government in the room to negotiate. Try actually reading a fucking book for a change instead of scatter-gunning the Internet with your Texan blowhard fail. 

[Salvo Montalbano]

24 minutes ago, virginton said:

The Munich Conference did not even have the subject state or government in the room to negotiate.  

From what I read China never contacted Ukraine?

[TxRover]

24 minutes ago, virginton said:

The Chinese haven't set out final conditions for a peace settlement, they've made an initiative to set initial terms from which a peace deal can be reached by negotiation of both parties. Which has been greeted with hysterical tears and snotters from NATO, which is too busy trying to ramp up Western public support for another forever war. 

The Munich Conference did not even have the subject state or government in the room to negotiate. Try actually reading a fucking book for a change instead of scatter-gunning the Internet with your Texan blowhard fail. 

They’ve proposed letting the aggressor keep territory, and you wonder why it’s rejected outright…you’re deluded.

[vikingTON]

8 minutes ago, TxRover said:

They’ve proposed letting the aggressor keep territory, and you wonder why it’s rejected outright…you’re deluded.

Rejected outright by whom?

[TxRover]

14 minutes ago, virginton said:

Rejected outright by whom?

Ukraine. They stated that the portion of the Chinese outline proposal possibly involving ceding territory is unacceptable. That’s a rejection. Meanwhile, you missed a red dot above…it’s amusing how you suggest people are upset while you show you are.

[vikingTON]

2 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Ukraine. They stated that the portion of the Chinese outline proposal possibly involving ceding territory is unacceptable. That’s a rejection. Meanwhile, you missed a red dot above…it’s amusing how you suggest people are upset while you show you are.

Erm no. Ukraine clearly did not 'outright reject' China at all:

Quote

 

Zelensky 'waiting for answer' from China on talks

Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky said Tuesday that he had invited China to talks and is waiting for an answer.

"We offered China to become a partner in the implementation of the peace formula," Mr Zelensky told a press conference. 

"We passed over our formula across all channels. We invite you to dialogue. We are waiting for your answer," he added. 

"We are receiving some signals, but there are no specifics yet."

 

It may suit NATO's current Sinophobic hysteria to claim that everyone is in lockstep agreement, but both parties in the conflict are demonstrably open to China's role in mediation. They're both miles apart in terms of their demands - that's how every mediation process starts.

The reality is that the West can't find a single point in China's actual proposal for peace that it can objects to on the grounds of international law. And has proposed no solution to the conflict of its own. 

[welshbairn]

China is the only serious power still with unused leverage over Russia and on talking terms, so they're pretty well essential for any peace deal to happen. No idea if they have an actual strategy for how it would go though, or if they're just concentrating on getting discounts on oil, gas and other raw materials from Russia.

[TxRover]

7 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

China is the only serious power still with unused leverage over Russia and on talking terms, so they're pretty well essential for any peace deal to happen. No idea if they have an actual strategy for how it would go though, or if they're just concentrating on getting discounts on oil, gas and other raw materials from Russia.

I agree…but they suggested a ceding of territory, which Ukraine has rightly rejected, despite appeasers like VT suggesting otherwise. Awaiting another red dot and hysterical response.

[welshbairn]

Just now, TxRover said:

I agree…but they suggested a ceding of territory, which Ukraine has rightly rejected, despite appeasers like VT suggesting otherwise. Awaiting another red dot and hysterical response.

Where did they suggest this? I haven't seen any details. 

[TxRover]

7 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Where did they suggest this? I haven't seen any details. 

The first point of the Chinese plan talks about respecting international boundaries, but China has already recognized Crimea as being part of Russia…

"We are against any nationality gaining independence through referendums. As far as Crimea is concerned, it has very special features. We know well the history of Crimea's affiliation. ... China reacts with full understanding to the challenges and threats Russia has faced in connection with the Ukrainian issue and supports Moscow's approach to its settlement." (2014)

Edited March 26, 2023 by TxRover

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, TxRover said:

The first point of the Chinese plan talks about respecting international boundaries, but China has already recognized Crimea as being part of Russia…

"We are against any nationality gaining independence through referendums. As far as Crimea is concerned, it has very special features. We know well the history of Crimea's affiliation. ... China reacts with full understanding to the challenges and threats Russia has faced in connection with the Ukrainian issue and supports Moscow's approach to its settlement." (2014)

Presumably that's from 2014 so not much of a clue about what they're thinking about now. And I very much doubt that Ukraine would place a forced occupation of Crimea over an unwilling population as a red line over a peace settlement.