Why were we so shite for so long?

[Donathan]

On 05/01/2023 at 16:29, Binos said:

 

One swallow doesn't make a summer 

[Donathan]

8 hours ago, dstuart82 said:

The ‘ultimate goal’ for Scotland should be to win the Euros.

Why limit the ambition to last 16. Plenty European nations in similar stature to us have progressed to QF’s, SF’s and even won it, so why not.

Of course, once you get the knockout rounds it’s anyone’s game, but I think the objective that Steve Clarke and future Scotland managers should be assessed on us establishing us as a top 16 European nations. That means:

 

- Regularly qualifying for the world cup

- Regularly reaching the knockout stages of the Euros

- Remaining in league A of the Nations League 

[craigkillie]

It should never obviously be a target, because that would be delusional, but it's clearly not impossible for Scotland to win a major tournament at some point. Teams like Croatia have shown that developing a small group of extremely talented players (usually with one world class one amongst them) and fostering a good team spirit can take you extremely far.

[ICTChris]

In my lifetime Greece and Denmark have both won the Euros and Wales have reached the semi-finals.  Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland and Iceland have both reached the knockout stages in recent years.  

Making it a target would be crazy but it's not impossible.

[bleedingums]

8 hours ago, Donathan said:

Of course, once you get the knockout rounds it’s anyone’s game, but I think the objective that Steve Clarke and future Scotland managers should be assessed on us establishing us as a top 16 European nations. That means:

 

- Regularly qualifying for the world cup

- Regularly reaching the knockout stages of the Euros

- Remaining in league A of the Nations League 

I think you’re both right. Nothing wrong with being ambitious as long as it’s also tempered by pragmatism. Target should be to win a tournament - expectation should be getting out of the group stage.

setting the bar too low is what’s bred the mediocrity we’ve dealt with for 20 odd years.

[Binos]

9 hours ago, ICTChris said:

In my lifetime Greece and Denmark have both won the Euros and Wales have reached the semi-finals.  Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland and Iceland have both reached the knockout stages in recent years.  

Making it a target would be crazy but it's not impossible.

Portugal a nation twice our size have won it

Mind they actually teach their young players technical ability 

[Satoshi]

10 hours ago, bleedingums said:

I think you’re both right. Nothing wrong with being ambitious as long as it’s also tempered by pragmatism. Target should be to win a tournament - expectation should be getting out of the group stage.

setting the bar too low is what’s bred the mediocrity we’ve dealt with for 20 odd years.

I don't think anyone has set the bar too low. We have usually aimed to qualify, and done well even when the group was incredibly hard (e.g. facing Italy and France).

6 hours ago, Binos said:

Portugal a nation twice our size have won it

Mind they actually teach their young players technical ability 

Doubling our population would help too.

[Monkey Tennis]

On 09/01/2023 at 23:50, Satoshi said:

But have been in the last 8 of the euros, and last 16 of the world cup plenty of times.

I can only think of us being in the last 8 of the Euros once.  That was in 1992.

When else did it happen?  I know that the tournament format only really came into being in 1980, but when, previously, did we reach what would effectively have been quarter finals?  

[Binos]

11 hours ago, Satoshi said:

 

Doubling our population would help too.

The quality of players Portugal have produced last 30 years,  compared to us, far outways per capita comparison 

They do things right,  we do things wrong 

[Binos]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I can only think of us being in the last 8 of the Euros once.  That was in 1992.

When else did it happen?  I know that the tournament format only really came into being in 1980, but when, previously, did we reach what would effectively have been quarter finals?  

Never

[Satoshi]

2 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I can only think of us being in the last 8 of the Euros once.  That was in 1992.

When else did it happen?  I know that the tournament format only really came into being in 1980, but when, previously, did we reach what would effectively have been quarter finals?  

We have done it once, in 1992, my post doesn't imply otherwise. We have been in the last 16 of the world cup plenty of times.

1 hour ago, Binos said:

The quality of players Portugal have produced last 30 years,  compared to us, far outways per capita comparison 

They do things right,  we do things wrong 

Well, maybe, they also benefit from colonisation to a greater extent than we do, Eusebio was born in Mozambique. Cristiano Ronaldo on an obscure African island that is far closer to Morocco and the Western Sahara than it is to Portugal.

Their third highest appearance holder is a Brazilian guy with no connection to Portugal before moving there for football, as was Deco.

We are also producing better players than Hungary, a nation three times our size with a wonderful football legacy.

Are we the best? No, but we are also far from the worse.

Indeed our post war record, especially world cup qualification, is excellent and peerless amongst nations our size in Europe.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Satoshi

[Binos]

11 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

We have done it once, in 1992, my post doesn't imply otherwise. We have been in the last 16 of the world cup plenty of times.

Well, maybe, they also benefit from colonisation to a greater extent than we do, Eusebio was born in Mozambique. Cristiano Ronaldo on an obscure African island that is far closer to Morocco and the Western Sahara than it is to Portugal.

Their third highest appearance holder is a Brazilian guy with no connection to Portugal before moving there for football, as was Deco.

We are also producing better players than Hungary, a nation three times our size with a wonderful football legacy.

Are we the best? No, but we are also far from the worse.

Indeed our post war record, especially world cup qualification, is excellent and peerless amongst nations our size in Europe.

Ronaldo is ethnic Portuguese 

Rui Costa,  Figo 

I rest my case without trying 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Binos

[Molotov]

18 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

We have done it once, in 1992, my post doesn't imply otherwise. We have been in the last 16 of the world cup plenty of times.

It really was an incredibly hard qualifying group yeah?

[Satoshi]

7 minutes ago, Binos said:

Ronaldo is ethnic Portuguese 

Rui Costa,  Figo 

I rest my case without trying 

Not quite sure what you mean by "ethnic Portuguese". I didn't see any evidence Ronaldos family or ancestors ever lived in mainland Portugal, his mothers family was from Cape Verde (another colony Portugal takes lots of players from). 

But yes, I'm not disputing that Portugal produce better players. If Scotland want to match them doubling our population, moving the country closer to the equator, colonising a bunch of African islands (and a huge mainland country) then changing the rules that would make Pepe and Deco available for us would all be good strategies to match their player production record.

[Binos]

1 minute ago, Satoshi said:

Not quite sure what you mean by "ethnic Portuguese". I didn't see any evidence Ronaldos family or ancestors ever lived in mainland Portugal, his mothers family was from Cape Verde (another colony Portugal takes lots of players from). 

But yes, I'm not disputing that Portugal produce better players. If Scotland want to match them doubling our population, moving the country closer to the equator, colonising a bunch of African islands (and a huge mainland country) then changing the rules that would make Pepe and Deco available for us would all be good strategies to match their player production record.

Not Brazilian or from cape verdi

[Binos]

2 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Not quite sure what you mean by "ethnic Portuguese". I didn't see any evidence Ronaldos family or ancestors ever lived in mainland Portugal, his mothers family was from Cape Verde (another colony Portugal takes lots of players from). 

But yes, I'm not disputing that Portugal produce better players. If Scotland want to match them doubling our population, moving the country closer to the equator, colonising a bunch of African islands (and a huge mainland country) then changing the rules that would make Pepe and Deco available for us would all be good strategies to match their player production record.

His mother's family

Great Great grandmother or something 

Nani was from cape verdi, ie actually from there

And yes eusabio was from Mozambique 

But I'm talking about,  only,  the last 30 years 

[Binos]

13 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Not quite sure what you mean by "ethnic Portuguese". I didn't see any evidence Ronaldos family or ancestors ever lived in mainland Portugal, his mothers family was from Cape Verde (another colony Portugal takes lots of players from). 

But yes, I'm not disputing that Portugal produce better players. If Scotland want to match them doubling our population, moving the country closer to the equator, colonising a bunch of African islands (and a huge mainland country) then changing the rules that would make Pepe and Deco available for us would all be good strategies to match their player production record.

We don't play technical football 

We don't coach our players technically 

That's why we are shite 

And btw, how many players have we poached from other nations just to make a team up

[Satoshi]

21 minutes ago, Binos said:

Not Brazilian or from cape verdi

So everyone who is not Brazilian or from Cape Verde is "ethnic Portuguese"? I can't argue with that logic.

18 minutes ago, Binos said:

His mother's family

Great Great grandmother or something 

Nani was from cape verdi, ie actually from there

And yes eusabio was from Mozambique 

But I'm talking about,  only,  the last 30 years 

There's no evidence that Ronaldos family ever lived in mainland Portugal. There is evidence his mothers family is from Cape Verde and there is clear evidence he was born and grew up on an island far closer to Morocco and the Western Sahara than it is to Portugal. So my point re Ronaldo, Eusebio, Deco and Pepe stands.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Satoshi

[Binos]

5 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

So everyone who is not Brazilian or from Cape Verde is "ethnic Portuguese"? I can't argue with that logic.

There's no evidence that Ronaldos family ever lived in mainland Portugal. There is evidence his mothers family is from Cape Verde and there is clear evidence he was born and grew up on an island far closer to Morocco and the Western Sahara than it is to Portugal. So my point re Ronaldo, Eusebio, Deco and Pepe stands.

OK Ronaldos not Portuguese 

Gotcha 

Gees peace 

[Binos]

10 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

So everyone who is not Brazilian or from Cape Verde is "ethnic Portuguese"? I can't argue with that logic.

There's no evidence that Ronaldos family ever lived in mainland Portugal. There is evidence his mothers family is from Cape Verde and there is clear evidence he was born and grew up on an island far closer to Morocco and the Western Sahara than it is to Portugal. So my point re Ronaldo, Eusebio, Deco and Pepe stands.

Just to help you out

Madeira, originally uninhabited, was claimed by Portuguese sailors in the service of Prince Henry the Navigator in 1419 and settled after 1420

it's Portuguese