The Big Queen's Park FC Thread

[Spooky Spider]

38 minutes ago, Spider1975 said:

It's a fair point and given the run of results since Arbroath, RV is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't; that said.....

The evidence as far as I can see is beginning to stack up; have said it before and will say it again, he's relatively inexperienced too and perhaps the sum total of a relatively inexperienced manager, (rather than coach) and a young, mainly inexperienced squad, is in reality, exactly equal to one point per game and an inability to defend effectively and score appropriately.

The substitutions last weekend are just the latest in what I think has been a list of questionable decisions by RV since the start of the season, not limited to:

1.  Late, questionable substitutions in winning positions vs Raith on two occasions;

2. Despite evidence pre-season that Reid was up to the job, (and potentially a better option that Tizzard/Fox), it's taken over a quarter of the season to give him a start;

3.  The constant tinkering of the CB pairings and for that matter the RB position

4. The very public lack of confidence in his CB options, leading to Thomson being played there out of position thus weakening midfield.  It could also be argued that Thomsons uncertainty in that position was partly responsible for the defeat at home to Dunfermline, (where RV blamed his defence for being too aggressive)

5.  Despite evidence that the left side was working vs Arbroath, the chopping and changing of the left side, with Robson then, not a guaranteed starter and Dom Thomas being constantly moved about the pitch.

6.  As mentioned previously the very public admonishing of Tizzard vs Airdie.  Full disclosure, I wasn't at that game, (watched it on TV) and whilst Tizzard was having a shocker up to the goal, I'm wondering exactly how much coaching/direction RV was giving prior to the goal/substitution, as from what I've seen so far, other than a bottle being hoofed vs Dunfermline, RV remains rather too passive on the touchline for someone who's supposed to be developing young players.

7. For someone who has been pro-active in making substitutions, RV's inability to understand how deep into the red-zone Longridge was and how immobile Bannon was at the last Thistle game was for me, a huge concern, especially as, at the time, Thistle were in the ascendancy. 

He seems like a decent bloke and I don't want to see anyone lose their job.  To give him his credit (and has already been mentioned), he at least, is fronting up whilst Beujker, Dempster & Haughey are MIA, any of whom could easily ease the pressure on him by stating exactly what the plan is; i.e. if development is the sole goal and if they feel this development won't be harmed by a dip into L1, then say so; if not and if the project is reliant upon maintaining the position in the Championship then they surely have to back RV in January.  

It's becoming clearer that the squad is maybe just a bit too young, a bit too inexperienced.  Unfortunately wedded to that it seems the senior leaders have maybe somewhat lost their effectiveness; RV obviously sees Ferrie as 2nd choice, Robson, (other than v Arbroath) has been way off it since his mate left for Dingwall, Fox can barely get a game (arguably third/fourth choice CB despite being 2nd choice forward) and whilst he provides a ton of effort and sound leadership I doubt whether Longridge would be a starter for most other teams in the League.  We also can't expect Dom Thomas to be doing everything either.

 

A very considered analysis and I think you've highlighted all the main issues. In the cold light of day (after my punching a door and storming out on Saturday!) I have to admit the team did look better and more cohesive. Not sure if Raith were just having an off day or we made them look bad, but performances are improving. I just wish they would get on and develop Lesser, a nice 2000 capacity stadium even if we are stuck in the Championship for two more years. Sick of Hampden now, cold, empty, leaky and that urine stank (urgh)

[Bring Your Own Socks]

7 hours ago, EaglesandSpiders said:

As for me, I don't know many of the new youngsters to have an opinion but my answer is they should be ready to make that challenge as long as the manager who is responsible for their training and development gives them an opportunity to prove themselves at the right time, for the right amount of time, against the right opponent. So far, I have seen very little evidence of this approach. 

There’s a definite demand to have young players on the park regardless of the position we are at that precise moment. Ostensibly it should help us in the longer run. If we have a complete reverse of Q4 this season as compared to last, things will have a very different feel. But it’s more than that. 

I’ve mentioned before the “minutes” culture which seems to be Beuker’s personal measurement tool for his success. The piece on SM about young players being played is deliberate, is their way of saying this is always how it would be. Another aspect is the recruitment drive. None of us here are privy to conversations that Beuker has with families and young players when he’s promising them a future in first team football that they are statistically unlikely to have at Celtic or Rangers, or even Thistle. It’s an easier discussion when he can reference ten YQP in the first team squad already. 

And none of us are privy to the “how far do we let this go” talk between Hunter and Haughey. Guys like Haughey don’t roll over when things start getting tough, they just find a way to get it sorted. And from what I’ve heard on his podcast this phase of the development will almost certainly have been considered beforehand. Haughey has consistently had a stance that whilst he’s interested in the first team as a fan, his money is dedicated to the Futures project. All of these things will be preying on Veldman’s mind when the clock is ticking down; little wonder he’s making some poor choices.

I read a Dutch article yesterday saying that Alex Kroes, who Beuker seemingly knows, is confirmed as the new General Manager at Ajax but won’t take up his position until March 15th so maybe Beuker will be around for a bit yet. Hopefully the club can squeeze every last Euro out of that situation. Meanwhile, it needs cleared up behind doors so that Veldman can make the choices that he wants to for the first team. Clearly, at the moment, he’s burdened by the big picture. January was a flop last year for transfers, apart from making some cash from Murray’s move (probably wiped out by the consequential distraction that led to the Scottish Cup debacle) and I’ve little hope for better this season. As above, first team pool is down to the Committee to finance and if it’s a net zero proposal I don’t see many in our colours (or tones if you’re an artist) who will attract big bucks at the moment. So he needs to make the youngsters better and having them in games is how to do that. But there’s a time and a place for everything and on Saturday, the Big Picture was give the Process a bodyswerve, let the guys win and so how that lifts moral. 

 

[Cyclops van Gogh 1867]

Now that the dust is beginning to settle on that hugely disappointing result I'd like to offer some thoughts.

I am still optimistic about the future for our squad and team this season.... allow me to explain.....

We have been improving.

We went into that game undefeated in four league games and but for a very dubious penalty it would have been five. 

Based on the season so far, the title looks highly likely to be going to Tannadice and at this point Raith Rovers look like they'll probably be next.

After that, I'd say everyone looks capable of beating any of the others on their day.

On Saturday, against a decent team that will quite likely finish second in the league this season we created 18 attempts on goal, 9 of which were on target. We have scored four goals against them in two games. Those stats alone do not suggest to me a team that is heading for a relegation dog- fight. 

I'm not saying that everything in the garden is rosey, but we are trying to play a championship league campaign while simultaneously hot-housing a group of promising youngsters. 

There will be two other play-off places up for grabs and with the addition of Stuart McKinstry and the return of Grant Savoury still to come, I see no reason why we can't be challenging for one of those.

So, to summarise, I think we need to ditch the Private Frazer ' We're doomed' vibes (apologies to anyone too young to know what that' s about!) For me, the only things we are lacking at the moment are momentum and a bit more confidence. Both of those will be rectified when we win a game or two. IMHO we are getting very close to achieving this.

'mon the Spiders! 

[It is our time to shine]

20 hours ago, Spider1975 said:

It's a fair point and given the run of results since Arbroath, RV is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't; that said.....

The evidence as far as I can see is beginning to stack up; have said it before and will say it again, he's relatively inexperienced too and perhaps the sum total of a relatively inexperienced manager, (rather than coach) and a young, mainly inexperienced squad, is in reality, exactly equal to one point per game and an inability to defend effectively and score appropriately.

The substitutions last weekend are just the latest in what I think has been a list of questionable decisions by RV since the start of the season, not limited to:

1.  Late, questionable substitutions in winning positions vs Raith on two occasions;

2. Despite evidence pre-season that Reid was up to the job, (and potentially a better option that Tizzard/Fox), it's taken over a quarter of the season to give him a start;

3.  The constant tinkering of the CB pairings and for that matter the RB position

4. The very public lack of confidence in his CB options, leading to Thomson being played there out of position thus weakening midfield.  It could also be argued that Thomsons uncertainty in that position was partly responsible for the defeat at home to Dunfermline, (where RV blamed his defence for being too aggressive)

5.  Despite evidence that the left side was working vs Arbroath, the chopping and changing of the left side, with Robson then, not a guaranteed starter and Dom Thomas being constantly moved about the pitch.

6.  As mentioned previously the very public admonishing of Tizzard vs Airdie.  Full disclosure, I wasn't at that game, (watched it on TV) and whilst Tizzard was having a shocker up to the goal, I'm wondering exactly how much coaching/direction RV was giving prior to the goal/substitution, as from what I've seen so far, other than a bottle being hoofed vs Dunfermline, RV remains rather too passive on the touchline for someone who's supposed to be developing young players.

7. For someone who has been pro-active in making substitutions, RV's inability to understand how deep into the red-zone Longridge was and how immobile Bannon was at the last Thistle game was for me, a huge concern, especially as, at the time, Thistle were in the ascendancy. 

He seems like a decent bloke and I don't want to see anyone lose their job.  To give him his credit (and has already been mentioned), he at least, is fronting up whilst Beujker, Dempster & Haughey are MIA, any of whom could easily ease the pressure on him by stating exactly what the plan is; i.e. if development is the sole goal and if they feel this development won't be harmed by a dip into L1, then say so; if not and if the project is reliant upon maintaining the position in the Championship then they surely have to back RV in January.  

It's becoming clearer that the squad is maybe just a bit too young, a bit too inexperienced.  Unfortunately wedded to that it seems the senior leaders have maybe somewhat lost their effectiveness; RV obviously sees Ferrie as 2nd choice, Robson, (other than v Arbroath) has been way off it since his mate left for Dingwall, Fox can barely get a game (arguably third/fourth choice CB despite being 2nd choice forward) and whilst he provides a ton of effort and sound leadership I doubt whether Longridge would be a starter for most other teams in the League.  We also can't expect Dom Thomas to be doing everything either.

 

Excellent summary 

[Bring Your Own Socks]

10 hours ago, Cyclops van Gogh 1867 said:

Now that the dust is beginning to settle on that hugely disappointing result I'd like to offer some thoughts.

I am still optimistic about the future for our squad and team this season.... allow me to explain.....

We have been improving.

We went into that game undefeated in four league games and but for a very dubious penalty it would have been five. 

Based on the season so far, the title looks highly likely to be going to Tannadice and at this point Raith Rovers look like they'll probably be next.

After that, I'd say everyone looks capable of beating any of the others on their day.

On Saturday, against a decent team that will quite likely finish second in the league this season we created 18 attempts on goal, 9 of which were on target. We have scored four goals against them in two games. Those stats alone do not suggest to me a team that is heading for a relegation dog- fight. 

I'm not saying that everything in the garden is rosey, but we are trying to play a championship league campaign while simultaneously hot-housing a group of promising youngsters. 

There will be two other play-off places up for grabs and with the addition of Stuart McKinstry and the return of Grant Savoury still to come, I see no reason why we can't be challenging for one of those.

So, to summarise, I think we need to ditch the Private Frazer ' We're doomed' vibes (apologies to anyone too young to know what that' s about!) For me, the only things we are lacking at the moment are momentum and a bit more confidence. Both of those will be rectified when we win a game or two. IMHO we are getting very close to achieving this.

'mon the Spiders! 

Great post except the last sentence. We were very, very close to achieving that on Saturday. If Veldman could just find the courage and boldness, even just once, to not bow to the “minutes” culture and let the guys playing well see the game out, that would be lift-off.

[Spider1975]

10 hours ago, Cyclops van Gogh 1867 said:

There will be two other play-off places up for grabs and with the addition of Stuart McKinstry and the return of Grant Savoury still to come, I see no reason why we can't be challenging for one of those.

Don't think we're doomed (yet) and the Thistle and Rovers games, (along with the Ayr come-back) may prove that there's enough there to see off places 9 and 10 in the league.

That said, I think the play-offs are a stretch (at the moment).  McKinstry is an unknown quantity and I'd caution against Grant Savoury coming straight back from the injury and length of time he's been out for and immediately picking up where he left off.  I'd also be highly surprised should there be much in the way of enforcements in January; I'd not be surprised if we see some leave, should suitable offers come in.

 

[Bring Your Own Socks]

I was eulogising about Billy Stark and his wonderful team on another topic and it prompted me to fact-check how long he was with us before creating those wonderful memories. Barring a couple of games, it was three full seasons. I know it’s different now, professionalism and money and all that, but everyone remembers that amazing run that started in January 2007 with 10 wins and a draw with seven games shutouts, plus beating Arbroath and Fife home and away in the play-offs. Nobody remembers finishing 6th in the bottom tier the season before, being trumped by the likes of Cowdenbeath and Berwick.

I’m not taking any shine off Billy and his boys here. Just saying, sometimes patience is better rewarded.

[spiders4ever]

28 minutes ago, Bring Your Own Socks said:

I was eulogising about Billy Stark and his wonderful team on another topic and it prompted me to fact-check how long he was with us before creating those wonderful memories. Barring a couple of games, it was three full seasons. I know it’s different now, professionalism and money and all that, but everyone remembers that amazing run that started in January 2007 with 10 wins and a draw with seven games shutouts, plus beating Arbroath and Fife home and away in the play-offs. Nobody remembers finishing 6th in the bottom tier the season before, being trumped by the likes of Cowdenbeath and Berwick.

I’m not taking any shine off Billy and his boys here. Just saying, sometimes patience is better rewarded.

I really didn't want that season to end.

[54yrsafan]

2 hours ago, spiders4ever said:

I really didn't want that season to end.

We are playing with one hand tied back under this project. Whoever calls the shots don't let us get relegated act now . If we have to keep R V  bring in some experienced players out of contract. January too late. P s   Malky sacked   would take him

[qpfc]

10 minutes ago, 54yrsafan said:

Malky sacked   would take him

 

[mcjameos]

2 hours ago, Spider1975 said:

Don't think we're doomed (yet) and the Thistle and Rovers games, (along with the Ayr come-back) may prove that there's enough there to see off places 9 and 10 in the league.

That said, I think the play-offs are a stretch (at the moment).  McKinstry is an unknown quantity and I'd caution against Grant Savoury coming straight back from the injury and length of time he's been out for and immediately picking up where he left off.  I'd also be highly surprised should there be much in the way of enforcements in January; I'd not be surprised if we see some leave, should suitable offers come in.

 

^^^ this. Over the disappointment now and back to hoping things will come together. However stopping myself getting over enthused about McKinstry or any others' till I  see them in action.

Would hope for some reinforcements if, as you say, some do leave as squad is thin enough at the moment. 

[an86]

19 minutes ago, 54yrsafan said:

We are playing with one hand tied back under this project. Whoever calls the shots don't let us get relegated act now . If we have to keep R V  bring in some experienced players out of contract. January too late. P s   Malky sacked   would take him

Would rather be relegated to the bottom tier of the West of Scotland League under literally anyone else, than be promoted to the top flight under Malky Mackay. 

[williebraveheart]

46 minutes ago, 54yrsafan said:

We are playing with one hand tied back under this project. Whoever calls the shots don't let us get relegated act now . If we have to keep R V  bring in some experienced players out of contract. January too late. P s   Malky sacked   would take him

No way would I accept Malky in any capacity. That would end my commitment as a fan.

[54yrsafan]

35 minutes ago, an86 said:

Would rather be relegated to the bottom tier of the West of Scotland League under literally anyone else, than be promoted to the top flight under Malky Mackay. 

Well if Demp or whoever don't get finger out you may get your wish.

[Zanetti]

58 minutes ago, 54yrsafan said:

We are playing with one hand tied back under this project. Whoever calls the shots don't let us get relegated act now . If we have to keep R V  bring in some experienced players out of contract. January too late. P s   Malky sacked   would take him

Malky MacKay had a 23.6% win ratio at Ross County. Even beyond all the baggage he comes with, he's just not a good manager.

[CathcartSkins]

On 14/11/2023 at 07:58, Spider1975 said:

It's a fair point and given the run of results since Arbroath, RV is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't; that said.....

The evidence as far as I can see is beginning to stack up; have said it before and will say it again, he's relatively inexperienced too and perhaps the sum total of a relatively inexperienced manager, (rather than coach) and a young, mainly inexperienced squad, is in reality, exactly equal to one point per game and an inability to defend effectively and score appropriately.

The substitutions last weekend are just the latest in what I think has been a list of questionable decisions by RV since the start of the season, not limited to:

1.  Late, questionable substitutions in winning positions vs Raith on two occasions;

2. Despite evidence pre-season that Reid was up to the job, (and potentially a better option that Tizzard/Fox), it's taken over a quarter of the season to give him a start;

3.  The constant tinkering of the CB pairings and for that matter the RB position

4. The very public lack of confidence in his CB options, leading to Thomson being played there out of position thus weakening midfield.  It could also be argued that Thomsons uncertainty in that position was partly responsible for the defeat at home to Dunfermline, (where RV blamed his defence for being too aggressive)

5.  Despite evidence that the left side was working vs Arbroath, the chopping and changing of the left side, with Robson then, not a guaranteed starter and Dom Thomas being constantly moved about the pitch.

6.  As mentioned previously the very public admonishing of Tizzard vs Airdie.  Full disclosure, I wasn't at that game, (watched it on TV) and whilst Tizzard was having a shocker up to the goal, I'm wondering exactly how much coaching/direction RV was giving prior to the goal/substitution, as from what I've seen so far, other than a bottle being hoofed vs Dunfermline, RV remains rather too passive on the touchline for someone who's supposed to be developing young players.

7. For someone who has been pro-active in making substitutions, RV's inability to understand how deep into the red-zone Longridge was and how immobile Bannon was at the last Thistle game was for me, a huge concern, especially as, at the time, Thistle were in the ascendancy. 

He seems like a decent bloke and I don't want to see anyone lose their job.  To give him his credit (and has already been mentioned), he at least, is fronting up whilst Beujker, Dempster & Haughey are MIA, any of whom could easily ease the pressure on him by stating exactly what the plan is; i.e. if development is the sole goal and if they feel this development won't be harmed by a dip into L1, then say so; if not and if the project is reliant upon maintaining the position in the Championship then they surely have to back RV in January.  

It's becoming clearer that the squad is maybe just a bit too young, a bit too inexperienced.  Unfortunately wedded to that it seems the senior leaders have maybe somewhat lost their effectiveness; RV obviously sees Ferrie as 2nd choice, Robson, (other than v Arbroath) has been way off it since his mate left for Dingwall, Fox can barely get a game (arguably third/fourth choice CB despite being 2nd choice forward) and whilst he provides a ton of effort and sound leadership I doubt whether Longridge would be a starter for most other teams in the League.  We also can't expect Dom Thomas to be doing everything either.

 

A lot to agree with; i would however put forward a defence for the tinkering at CB, which can in part be put down to two red cards.

Subsequent suspensions leads to tinkering. 

[Spider1975]

3 hours ago, CathcartSkins said:

A lot to agree with; i would however put forward a defence for the tinkering at CB, which can in part be put down to two red cards.

Subsequent suspensions leads to tinkering. 

Yes, to a point.  Three reds so far; a petulant Hepburn, (you can make your own mind up what impact, if any, that had on the result) and one a piece of Fox and Tizzard.  I'll concede Tizzard, as at that point he was a starter and it ruled him out of 2 league games but that prompted the erroneous (imho) use of Thomson as a make-shift CB, which coincided with that awful run of results.  Fox's red came in the Viaplay so didn't affect the league starting pairings.

I will concede, having re-read my post that I've probably been harsh on Longridge.  

It's a shame for him that Spong has been so strong in that 6 role and that in part due to this the midfield almost picks itself as we've seen both vs Livvy pre-season and during the second half at Starks after Tizzards sending off, how effective he is in marshalling that midfield.  I wonder if advancing Spong a little and playing Longridge as a screen in front of the defence wouldn't maybe settle things down a bit?

[Spider1975]

7 hours ago, williebraveheart said:

No way would I accept Malky in any capacity. That would end my commitment as a fan.

Can we all agree now that any talk of Malky or, God forbid, Billy 'they all got a bit too technical' Dodds should be consigned straight to the bin?

Personally I blame OC.  We were fine, doodling along in L1, drawing each week whilst watching Airdrie and Cove disappear off into the distance, only for him to pitch up, get us promoted and then taking us to the top of the Championship - how is anyone supposed to manage their expectations after that?

Edited November 15, 2023 by Spider1975

[Anonymous Spider]

If there's any Prem managers on a shoogly peg we might want to keep an eye on, I'd suggest Kettlewell... but for the record, I'm still on the RV bus. 

I disagree with some earlier chat though. If we're still struggling when the window opens, I wouldn't be massively surprised if there's a couple of additions to the squad.  

[an86]

8 hours ago, Zanetti said:

Malky MacKay had a 23.6% win ratio at Ross County. Even beyond all the baggage he comes with, he's just not a good manager.

It would be the stupidest possible thing we could do, which is why I’m not entirely relaxed that we wouldn’t do it.