The Queen of the South thread

[19QOS19]

Why “unfortunately” a new contract- if he were to keep us up (and that is still a big if in my opinion) surely he would deserve another stint given the underlying circumstances would he not? His recruitment has been a positive surely? Obileye, Nortey, Maxwell, McKee, Shields, Jones, Breen, Fitzpatrick.Some of the younger players like McGrory surely have potential.Realistically are they not as good and innovative signings as we could expect in our position with a complete new squad to build? You are not alone plenty others feel the same but I just dont get it. We have had countless Managers over the years who achieved very very little who are held in higher esteem than Alan Johnston...........a good player for us in the twilight of his career, a notable double in his first year, saved us from relegation after the Naysmith debacle and now turning round a disastrous start to the season with a jinxed injury list. Add in a promotion and a Play off position at Dunfermline and I am just not getting this weak managerial cv?

Because for the majority of the season the football on show has been turgid. If this wee run we're on just now isn't a 'fluke' and we do in fact push on from here then my opinion will obviously change. But I'm still very much in the "hope he goes" camp. Lets not forget Naysmith had a run of results for us and folk were calling for a 2 year extension and looked how that turned out. I honestly hope the players are now gelling and AJ has either stumbled upon or sussed his best set-up and we avoid the drop, it's just hard not to be skeptical at this point.

My memory for previous seasons isn't great but having a look back at the his play-off place, they were miles off the top spot. Dunfermline fans will know better but I'm sure they were tipped for a promotion challenge and that was a spectacular fail.

Which other managers that have achieved less are held in higher regard out of interest? I've never thought about it but I suppose of our recent managers, 'officially' only Naysmith* and McPherson have been worse.

* That's probably not even the case with GN as he finished 9th, exactly the same as AJ though I suspect it'd have likely been 10th if the season was played.

[19QOS19]

I didn’t actually say “relegated” so please don’t put words into my mouth.
I think a big number want Johnston out and while this revival has been great it hasn’t necessarily suited their agenda or supported earlier scathing criticism of him.As I said in another post I just don’t understand why Johnston is viewed so negatively by so many. His record as a player and a manager here bears very favourable scrutiny with the vast majority of managers that I have seen here over many long years supporting the club.

On the player front. How he was as a player is totally irrelevant when judging him as a manager. AJ was one of my favourite players when he was with us, I thought he was a quality even in his old age! That hasn't changed despite how I rate him as a manager. Lets face it though, if Dobbie takes charge one day and fails miserably he'll be criticised just the same.

[DavidWatt26]

2 minutes ago, Rjc-1988 said:

 

I didn’t actually say “relegated” so please don’t put words into my mouth.
I think a big number want Johnston out and while this revival has been great it hasn’t necessarily suited their agenda or supported earlier scathing criticism of him.As I said in another post I just don’t understand why Johnston is viewed so negatively by so many. His record as a player and a manager here bears very favourable scrutiny with the vast majority of managers that I have seen here over many long years supporting the club.

 

“Seeing Johnston fail than us to stay up” suggests being relegated. For him to fail would only be him getting us relegated. What else would be regarded as a failure? Because after the season we’ve had just about all our fan base expected us to get relegated this season, we thought it was inevitable. Staying up whether that be via the play-off would be an achievement in many fans eyes after going a year without a win.  That’s not me putting words in your mouth. 
 

[Skyline Drifter]

32 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

Because for the majority of the season the football on show has been turgid.

 

Seriously?

That would be a better description of last year than this. For the majority of this season we've had a worrying tendency to sell cheap goals, either from set pieces early on and later from individual errors. But the general football has, for me, been pretty entertaining. Even in losing heavily early season we were scoring (3-2 at Dunfermline, 5-2 v Raith).

I appreciate I probably get a different perspective to most, at least at home games, but I think the football's been good.

[Monkey Tennis]

Does George Galloway get his name on the new shirt five times?

[19QOS19]

Seriously?
That would be a better description of last year than this. For the majority of this season we've had a worrying tendency to sell cheap goals, either from set pieces early on and later from individual errors. But the general football has, for me, been pretty entertaining. Even in losing heavily early season we were scoring (3-2 at Dunfermline, 5-2 v Raith).
I appreciate I probably get a different perspective to most, at least at home games, but I think the football's been good.

Yes. I didn't think that was a very controversial statement tbh.

[Monkey Tennis]

AJ did great first time around.  We won the league by a ridiculous margin and turned in several notable performances in Cups.  He benefited from a tail wind in having a fulltime squad and having a bunch of youngsters blossom together.

19QOS19, however, wasn't really saying otherwise.  He was simply challenging the idea that AJ had a very tight budget at that time.  Relative to his surroundings, he didn't.

[Skyline Drifter]

5 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

Yes. I didn't think that was a very controversial statement tbh.

All in the eye of the beholder I guess but I think the football's been quite entertaining generally. Guys like McCabe and McKee are looking to get the ball down and pass it. They are both miles more creative than anyone we've had in the middle since probably McShane (or half a season of Harkins I guess). Obileye is the most "footballing" centre back we've had since Lovell was playing sweeper. Maxwell is straight out of the modern full back manual who is comfortable on the ball and weaving up the pitch. We've a converted winger at the other full back spot very comfortable on the ball. Fitzpatrick is the definition of a maverick who is pretty unpredictable. Shields has been effective all season with pace and power.

[Skyline Drifter]

6 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

AJ did great first time around.  We won the league by a ridiculous margin and turned in several notable performances in Cups.  He benefited from a tail wind in having a fulltime squad and having a bunch of youngsters blossom together.

19QOS19, however, wasn't really saying otherwise.  He was simply challenging the idea that AJ had a very tight budget at that time.  Relative to his surroundings, he didn't.

Well we weren't in a full time division so we weren't competing with full time sides in the market for the same players really.

With a degree of inside knowledge here, I'd suggest he very much WAS working to a pretty tight budget in terms of recruiting full time footballers. He got lucky in that a group of youngsters came through at the same time who were very much 1st team quality levels but were young, local and cheap. That helped stretch his budget but he wasn't trying to recruit players that Alloa, Arbroath, Brechin, etc were trying to sign so the "surroundings" aren't massively relevant.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Skyline Drifter

[Monkey Tennis]

2 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

If he keeps us up this season I'd argue it's at least on par with him winning the league with us the first time around, if not a better achievement

 

Seriously?

[Monkey Tennis]

4 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Well we weren't in a full time division so we weren't competing with full time sides in the market for the same players really.

With a degree of inside knowledge here, I'd suggest he very much WAS working to a pretty tight budget in terms of recruiting full time footballers. He got lucky in that a group of youngsters came through at the same time who were very much 1st team quality levels but were young, local and cheap. That helped stretch his budget but he wasn't trying to recruit players that Alloa, Arbroath, Brechin, etc were trying to sign so the "surroundings" aren't massively relevant.

No, he was aiming for better players than the smaller clubs round him were after, so his surroundings were indeed massively relevant.

He had a tight budget compared to clubs he wasn't competing against.

[Skyline Drifter]

4 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

No, he was aiming for better players than the smaller clubs round him were after, so his surroundings were indeed massively relevant.

He had a tight budget compared to clubs he wasn't competing against.

He was competing against them in terms of trying to recruit competent players. We all know if you simply take all the guys who want to be full time after everyone else has had their pick you'll certainly not be as good as the best part-timers. You can't quite look at it in the sort isolation you currently are in my opinion. We may not currently share a division with Falkirk, Thistle and even Queens Park but we're still competing with them for players and in some cases losing out to them.

At the end of the day people will look at it how they want to though.

[19QOS19]

Seriously?

Yeah I'd say so. You only have to look at the league prediction thread to see we're expected by many to be relegation cannon fodder this year. I'd have bitten your hand for 8th before a ball was kicked and early on I'd have settled for 9th given how bad things were. Contrast that to the season we came up, we maybe weren't officially favourites to win the league championship but promotion was very much the minimum we expected so it was a case of job done (even though it was achieved in remarkable style). If he keeps us up this season I'll be more shocked than I was with us winning League 1.

[stevie72]

We are better at the defensive side of the game now as we have Ayo sitting in front of the defence. He very rarely goes over half way line apart from set peices Teams are having to go wide and then cross into the box and we have three physical players in there. Nortey and McGrory seem to interchange when pressing further up the park and make opposition go wide all the time. . Both press well slightly differently from McKee who is probably better on the ball but lazier of it. Will AJ stick with the same against Dundee?

[Monkey Tennis]

3 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

He was competing against them in terms of trying to recruit competent players. We all know if you simply take all the guys who want to be full time after everyone else has had their pick you'll certainly not be as good as the best part-timers. You can't quite look at it in the sort isolation you currently are in my opinion. We may not currently share a division with Falkirk, Thistle and even Queens Park but we're still competing with them for players and in some cases losing out to them.

At the end of the day people will look at it how they want to though.

Extend that 'logic' and we'd better switch to part-time as soon as we can.

[Skyline Drifter]

Just now, Monkey Tennis said:

Extend that 'logic' and we'd better switch to part-time as soon as we can.

You'll have to 'show your workings' for that conclusion I'm afraid. Because it's nonsense.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Skyline Drifter

[Monkey Tennis]

3 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

13 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Seriously?

Yeah I'd say so. You only have to look at the league prediction thread to see we're expected by many to be relegation cannon fodder this year. I'd have bitten your hand for 8th before a ball was kicked and early on I'd have settled for 9th given how bad things were. Contrast that to the season we came up, we maybe weren't officially favourites to win the league championship but promotion was very much the minimum we expected so it was a case of job done (even though it was achieved in remarkable style). If he keeps us up this season I'll be more shocked than I was with us winning League 1.

I'd still have looked for us to finish above Alloa and Arbroath at the start of the season.  That wasn't looking likely at Christmas, but I don't see staying in this division as much of a triumph overall.

As you know, Ayr were favourites with bookies and on here to win that division.  That we won it was an achievement, if not an incredible one.  

[Monkey Tennis]

3 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

You'll have to 'show your workings' for that conclusion I'm afraid. Because it's nonsense.

No it's not.

You're actively saying that it's harder to assemble a decent cheap fulltime squad, than a  yet cheaper part-time one.

Your idea that our surroundings weren't relevant because we'd be looking to sign more expensive players than those being sought by other clubs in those surroundings, took nonsense to new and giddying heights.

[19QOS19]

I'd still have looked for us to finish above Alloa and Arbroath at the start of the season.  That wasn't looking likely at Christmas, but I don't see staying in this division as much of a triumph overall.
As you know, Ayr were favourites with bookies and on here to win that division.  That we won it was an achievement, if not an incredible one.  

I think that was the hope but given Arbroath's previous season and the fact they appeared to keep the core of their players I think they were tipped to stay up pretty comfortably. I can't be bothered to go through it again but I expect Arbroath feature more in 7th and 8th than 9th and 10th. We had three players signed and I don't envy AJ having to build a new side, it is a big ask and early doors it didn't look too promising with a lot of the players looking below standard*.

I know Ayr were favourites but it wasn't a David and Goliath tale. Ayr had been down there for years so it wasn't a shock to see them hang around again. Again, I expect the vast majority of QoS supporters expected an immediate return to this division.

*Again, the jury is of course still out.

[Monkey Tennis]

4 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

I expect the vast majority of QoS supporters expected an immediate return to this division.

D'you reckon?

This one didn't particularly.