Arbroath Vs Morton

[The Ghost of B A R P]

1 minute ago, timlichtie said:

There’s a lot of truth in your point about natural levels. We certainly have enjoyed a purple patch since DC and the current board have been in charge. A glance at the many improvements to Gayfield and our other infrastructure shows a bigger picture.
Natural level assumes that the dynamics never change. Greenock is not the powerhouse that I remember from the past. Arbroath has changed dramatically too. Clubs like Cove can be elevated by financial support and then possibly maintain their status in a good area to grow the fan base.
Arbroath may struggle to stay in the Championship but I believe that our “natural level “ has changed, for now at least.

Not so sure about the 'natural levels' stuff: I was told at the beginning of the season (by someone who should know) that Arbroath had £1.5M in the bank (and subsequently that Allan is on more than a grand a week on a part-time contract)... that puts you way above Morton's 'level', now or in the near future.

This isn't intended as criticism, btw: if the above is accurate, it's a credit to everyone at Arbroath, including the manager, that they've managed to make the model work so well... and without any of the artificial stimulus of a Haughey-type figure.

Lob a similar salary at a credible centre-forward in January and you'll stay in the league. Keep managing the finances as well as you have done and there's no reason you can't stay here long-term.

[The Ghost of B A R P]

Just now, ExiledLichtie said:

It is about us, not you.  The opposition does not matter in this case.  It does feel a bit like Morton fans need to get over themselves.

Arbroath thread for this pish.

And we're comfortably 'over ourselves', thanks very much: happy to take an away point, even in a game where a marginal offside and a stonewall penalty denied us a victory... while you just think you should be beating Morton, regardless of all evidence to the contrary. Get. Over. Yourself.

 

Just now, ExiledLichtie said:

Plus there is no point adding to our squad unless our management plays in a way that gets the best out of them.  And that's the problem we have here.

New levels of pish, I'm afraid... are you seriously arguing that there's 'no point' in adding a better striker because you don't like Dick?

I could manage Arbroath to the right play-offs with a Nouble or a Hamilton in the squad.

The problem you have is that your squad currently isn't good enough, it's that simple.

[1320Lichtie]

10 hours ago, Toby said:

I suspect that managing expectations is a massive issue after last season. You reached a pinnacle that is unlikely to be matched again for at least a generation and don’t appear to be taking it too well, and the loan market isn’t as fruitful for Campbell as it was previously- perhaps that’s something to do with Dougie’s close relationship with Martindale putting us in the front of that particular queue.

Far better teams than Arbroath have failed to break down that Morton team in recent times- I’m sure both Dundee and Ayr in the last few weeks, who were forced to accept a point at home were disappointed, but we’re generally very good at making sure we don’t lose a game if we’re not going to win it.

Had Campbell got yesterday’s team selection spot on, I doubt you’d have got any more than a point. It’s probably a time for a bit of perspective as to where your club are. Last season was an anomaly. You’re not at the top end of the division and shouldn’t be expecting to roll over long established Championship clubs who are going well themselves as a matter of course anymore.

Arbroath are probably still above their natural level in Scottish football’s food chain and throwing the toys out the pram because you failed to beat Morton at home strikes me as the behaviour of someone that’s been a wee bit spoiled in recent times.

I agree with you on a lot of this however I don’t agree with that we have had unrealistic expectations, all anyone wants is 8th. Also the food chain stuff needs to be addressed at some point, after 3 years of average crowds around 1400/1500 and then this season that is 1966. At some point people have to realise that we are a Championship sized club now 

 

8 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

It is about us, not you.  The opposition does not matter in this case.  It does feel a bit like Morton fans need to get over themselves.

 

Plus there is no point adding to our squad unless our management plays in a way that gets the best out of them.  And that's the problem we have here.

What can the management possibly change with the players we have available? The consensus before Saturday was to go with the team we went with. It never worked out and Dick made subs to correct it making big calls too in taking off Allan and Tait. You cannot moan too much at that. Even think his subbing of Bobby was the correct decision, he wasn’t having a great game and he did look a bitty leggy. No complaints from me

[Toby]

27 minutes ago, timlichtie said:

There’s a lot of truth in your point about natural levels. We certainly have enjoyed a purple patch since DC and the current board have been in charge. A glance at the many improvements to Gayfield and our other infrastructure shows a bigger picture.
Natural level assumes that the dynamics never change. Greenock is not the powerhouse that I remember from the past. Arbroath has changed dramatically too. Clubs like Cove can be elevated by financial support and then possibly maintain their status in a good area to grow the fan base.
Arbroath may struggle to stay in the Championship but I believe that our “natural level “ has changed, for now at least.

It’s almost as if I didn’t use the perfectly reasonable barometer of the last 16 years as a decent illustration as to what Morton’s natural level in Scottish football is.

I’m well aware dynamics changed- we’ve already seen financially-doped clubs like Inverness and Ross County overtake us in the food chain, although hopefully Inverness’s current trajectory is a downward one.

The best guide in the short term as to how far Arbroath have progressed for me will be next season’s season ticket sales. How many will be willing to fork out when the football’s not as great? Saturday’s crowd didn’t look anything like the published 1664 to me, but many clubs announce tickets sold rather than folk in the ground. I’d suggest there were about 1200 in the ground, especially if the announced 219 away fans is accurate.

19 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

It is about us, not you.  The opposition does not matter in this case.  It does feel a bit like Morton fans need to get over themselves.

 

Plus there is no point adding to our squad unless our management plays in a way that gets the best out of them.  And that's the problem we have here.

I’m going to back track on what I said earlier- it really is about us. I take issue with your assertion last night that Morton were “there for the taking”. We managed a tricky game well enough to get a draw out of it having not played particularly well. You simply didn’t have the tools to beat us, such is the progress we’ve made since the abomination at Cappielow.

Rather than the Morton fans needing to get over ourselves, I’d suggest the problem lies with yourself refusing to accept that last season was the pinnacle, it’s downhill from here and the more established Championship clubs have upped their game as you’ve regressed. It was always going to happen, and the sooner you accept that and get over it, the more you’ll enjoy your football.

[1320Lichtie]

1 minute ago, Toby said:

It’s almost as if I didn’t use the perfectly reasonable barometer of the last 16 years as a decent illustration as to what Morton’s natural level in Scottish football is.

I’m well aware dynamics changed- we’ve already seen financially-doped clubs like Inverness and Ross County overtake us in the food chain, although hopefully Inverness’s current trajectory is a downward one.

The best guide in the short term as to how far Arbroath have progressed for me will be next season’s season ticket sales. How many will be willing to fork out when the football’s not as great? Saturday’s crowd didn’t look anything like the published 1664 to me, but many clubs announce tickets sold rather than folk in the ground. I’d suggest there were about 1200 in the ground, especially if the announced 219 away fans is accurate.

I’m going to back track on what I said earlier- it really is about us. I take issue with your assertion last night that Morton were “there for the taking”. We managed a tricky game well enough to get a draw out of it having not played particularly well. You simply didn’t have the tools to beat us, such is the progress we’ve made since the abomination at Cappielow.

Rather than the Morton fans needing to get over ourselves, I’d suggest the problem lies with yourself refusing to accept that last season was the pinnacle, it’s downhill from here and the more established Championship clubs have upped their game as you’ve regressed. It was always going to happen, and the sooner you accept that and get over it, the more you’ll enjoy your football.

There was easily 1664 in the ground Saturday. We do not do it based off tickets sold and I also was not talking about Morton. Morton are quite clearly also a Championship sized club. Staying up is vitally important this year for us for our long term plans. We have got it badly wrong in the summer but the backing is there and it has been there for a good period of time now. We have to capitalise on the increase we’ve had this year and in a strange way pulling ourselves out of this position would feel just as good as being at the top end of the table. It’ll not have been a bland season if we manage to do that.

[Tattie36]

Our main stand holds around 880. It looked to me like there were around 650-700 in it on Saturday. That leaves around 1000 standing and there was easily that, or is Toby suggesting there were only 500 standing on the terraces and fewer than 1000 Arbroath fans in total at the game? Having been going to Gayfield since the late 70s I normally have a pretty good guess at the attendance and I guessed 1700 on Saturday.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Tattie36

[1320Lichtie]

40 minutes ago, Tattie36 said:

Our main stand holds around 880. It looked to me like there were around 650-700 in it on Saturday. That leaves around 1000 standing and there was easily that, or is Toby suggesting there were only 500 standing on the terraces and fewer that 1000 Arbroath in total at the game? Having been going to Gayfield since the late 70s I normally have a pretty good guess at the attendance and I guessed 1700 on Saturday.

I don’t know if he was being serious to be honest and it’s drawn out a conversation that did not need to happen. My point was when does this punching above weight thing stop because it’s also being used as an excuse by some Arbroath fans for the managements failings this year. They’ve had a healthy competitive budget and have been backed very well by the club, the fans and sponsors. It’s practically a full time set up minus the players and even then there’s about 5 of them living in the town and coming into Gayfield for 2 extra sessions a week. It can’t be used as an excuse right now in my opinion or as justification as to why we’re not doing great. 
 

The expectation stuff too, absolutely nobody put any pressure on Dick or the team after last years performance. Everyone knew that was once in a lifetime stuff, so anyone saying otherwise needs to give it a rest. Most of us didn’t enjoy being media darlings last year 

Edited December 5, 2022 by 1320Lichtie

[ExiledLichtie]

1 hour ago, 1320Lichtie said:

What can the management possibly change with the players we have available? The consensus before Saturday was to go with the team we went with. It never worked out and Dick made subs to correct it making big calls too in taking off Allan and Tait. You cannot moan too much at that. Even think his subbing of Bobby was the correct decision, he wasn’t having a great game and he did look a bitty leggy. No complaints from me

Really?  The consensus was to play a big glob of central midfielders in the same place, no width, and a short winger up front to get high balls played to him?  I don't recall that consensus.  As soon as I saw that team, I knew exactly what was coming, surely everyone did?  

I agree that the management got the subs right, and that the changes made a massive difference.  But not for the first time, I question why we were in that position at all.  

There's plenty the management can do with their existing players.  See the second half as an example.  See the Cove game before we made 5 changes.  

I'll leave the Morton fan to get over himself.  Who would have thought that so many consecutive seasons of finishing below us in the league would make them so sensitive?

 

 

[1320Lichtie]

16 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

Really?  The consensus was to play a big glob of central midfielders in the same place, no width, and a short winger up front to get high balls played to him?  I don't recall that consensus.  As soon as I saw that team, I knew exactly what was coming, surely everyone did?  

I agree that the management got the subs right, and that the changes made a massive difference.  But not for the first time, I question why we were in that position at all.  

There's plenty the management can do with their existing players.  See the second half as an example.  See the Cove game before we made 5 changes.  

I'll leave the Morton fan to get over himself.  Who would have thought that so many consecutive seasons of finishing below us in the league would make them so sensitive?

 

 

Read the thread back. Most said Linn uptop with Allan behind and that midfield was the way to go until January 

 

And if we started with a midfield of Hoti and Jacobs centre mid and Fosu and McKenna upfront everyone would have been shocked let’s be honest

[ExiledLichtie]

1 hour ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Read the thread back. Most said Linn uptop with Allan behind and that midfield was the way to go until January 

Aye, and I called it Stockholm Syndrome pre-match too.

[1320Lichtie]

8 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

Aye, and I called it Stockholm Syndrome pre-match too.

Do not understand why that’s Stockholm Syndrome? It seems to just be the consensus opinion of fans and management after watching 4 month worth of on the park evidence 

[ExiledLichtie]

19 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Do not understand why that’s Stockholm Syndrome? It seems to just be the consensus opinion of fans and management after watching 4 month worth of on the park evidence 

Yes. Quite.

[36-0 Maroon]

11 hours ago, Toby said:

It’s almost as if I didn’t use the perfectly reasonable barometer of the last 16 years as a decent illustration as to what Morton’s natural level in Scottish football is.

I’m well aware dynamics changed- we’ve already seen financially-doped clubs like Inverness and Ross County overtake us in the food chain, although hopefully Inverness’s current trajectory is a downward one.

The best guide in the short term as to how far Arbroath have progressed for me will be next season’s season ticket sales. How many will be willing to fork out when the football’s not as great? Saturday’s crowd didn’t look anything like the published 1664 to me, but many clubs announce tickets sold rather than folk in the ground. I’d suggest there were about 1200 in the ground, especially if the announced 219 away fans is accurate.

I’m going to back track on what I said earlier- it really is about us. I take issue with your assertion last night that Morton were “there for the taking”. We managed a tricky game well enough to get a draw out of it having not played particularly well. You simply didn’t have the tools to beat us, such is the progress we’ve made since the abomination at Cappielow.

Rather than the Morton fans needing to get over ourselves, I’d suggest the problem lies with yourself refusing to accept that last season was the pinnacle, it’s downhill from here and the more established Championship clubs have upped their game as you’ve regressed. It was always going to happen, and the sooner you accept that and get over it, the more you’ll enjoy your football.

Certainly for me being a fan for over 30 years of our glorious wee club this is the absolute golden age period and what I have witnessed these past 6 years with the Campbell brothers is nothing short of incredible with the back to back league titles climbing from 2nd bottom of league 2 to that pinnacle and to think we were within 10 minutes of Premiership football last season these are memories for a lifetime  ️

Arbroath for as long as I can remember have always been a sleeping giant, With the population and history of this great football club I always maintained we were a Championship level club so to see it finally come to fruition is just amazing, The club is together and like the chairman, directors and management have said it’s always about togetherness and never standing still, Just look at the club, the stadium and the finances and everything that’s happening round the town, We want to keep progressing and I believe we will continue to do so, We as a club are very ambitious and like every opposing Manager has said we are in a very false position, In January we will regroup and push on, This is only our 4th season in the Championship, We should always be grateful and respectful of where we are and never take it for granted unless we want to become another Alloa, Cowdenbeath, Brechin, Falkirk, Dumbarton or Dunfermline.

Morton are a quality proven Championship side, something that we should be striving to achieve as our next goal , Something we need to prove to ourselves over the next 10 years at least to prove all the doubters wrong, I think we have gained so much admiration and respect from everywhere but we must keep the faith and focus and not get too far ahead of ourselves, Last season was a dream, The goal believe it or not this season was to finish 8th and we can still do that, anything else every other season is just a huge bonus ️

[Smokerson]

22 hours ago, ExiledLichtie said:

Really?  The consensus was to play a big glob of central midfielders in the same place, no width, and a short winger up front to get high balls played to him?  I don't recall that consensus.  As soon as I saw that team, I knew exactly what was coming, surely everyone did?  

I agree that the management got the subs right, and that the changes made a massive difference.  But not for the first time, I question why we were in that position at all.  

There's plenty the management can do with their existing players.  See the second half as an example.  See the Cove game before we made 5 changes.  

I'll leave the Morton fan to get over himself.  Who would have thought that so many consecutive seasons of finishing below us in the league would make them so sensitive?

 

 

So you would've started Fosu and Jacobs and dropped which two from the Fraserburgh game?

[ExiledLichtie]

On 06/12/2022 at 09:54, Smokerson said:

So you would've started Fosu and Jacobs and dropped which two from the Fraserburgh game?

I would have identified that the Fraserburgh game was eye bleedingly awful, and that putting 2 goals past a highland league team tells us nothing.

Incidentally, you are aware that we didnt name an unchanged team from the Fraserburgh game, right?

I would have learned from the last 6 months and played a striker, either Shanks or Isiaka, not Fosu. Likely at the cost of Hoti or Gold.  Linn back on the wing, McKenna in a free role behind Isiaka/Shanks.  I also wouldn't have started Jacobs, I would have started Bitsindou, exactly as we did.

So I make that one change from the Fraserburgh game.  The same number that Dick made.