The Very Meh Humza Yousaf Thread.

[lichtgilphead]

1 minute ago, strichener said:

You are assuming that this the poster in question is not on a defined benefit pension.  I am guessing that he is.

AVC's are not usually part of a defined benefit pension. 

[strichener]

1 minute ago, lichtgilphead said:

, thus showing the assertion that Scottish taxpayers on £50,000 paid £1500 more than their Englash equivalents to be incorrect

In one specific scenario whereby you choose to reduce your income.  Someone "earning" 50k in Scotland will pay more income tax than down south.

[strichener]

1 minute ago, lichtgilphead said:

AVC's are not usually part of a defined benefit pension. 

That isn't correct.

[lichtgilphead]

Just now, strichener said:

That isn't correct.

It is with regard to the largest Local Government Pension Scheme in Scotland

 

[Soapy FFC]

3 minutes ago, strichener said:

That isn't correct.

I assume what he means is, an AVC does not count towards your X% for every year of service. The AVC is a separate pension pot that does not change your DC benefits. I Think.

[Left Back]

10 minutes ago, Soapy FFC said:

Do you have a crystal ball and know how much investments will return in the next 10, 20, 30 years? Do you know how old the person making the contribution is and how long the contribution will be invested before it's taxed? Most pension investments aim to have a return of inflation+x%, so I don't really follow your lower in real real terms tax paid.

It’s lower in because miracles aside your income in retirement will be lower than income while working.  50-60% of working income is assumed to be a retirement goal.  

Whether people working today have a hope in hell of achieving anything like that is of course up for debate.  Pensions have been performing horrifically for years now.  That might change now interest rates are normalising (compared to historic rates) but UK stock markets are still shite.

I don’t have a crystal ball but I don’t think it’s up for debate that you pay less tax in retirement than you do while working.

[strichener]

Just now, Soapy FFC said:

I assume what he means is, an AVC does not count towards your X% for every year of service. The AVC is a separate pension pot that does not change your DC benefits. I Think.

Again, this is not correct.  Dependant on the scheme, avcs can be used with a DB scheme as DB AVCs that can buy extra years or extra benefit.

[strichener]

3 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

It is with regard to the largest Local Government Pension Scheme in Scotland

 

So you are on a defined benefit pension.  Thanks for clarifying. 

[Soapy FFC]

Just now, strichener said:

Again, this is not correct.  Dependant on the scheme, avcs can be used with a DB scheme as DB AVCs that can buy extra years or extra benefit.

The final salary scheme that I used to be in had AVC's that did not count towards your final salary, but you could also pay fixed 2/3/5/10/15% extra that did modify your accrual rates. They were 2 separate things. I'm not sure why you'd go for the one that didn't change your accrual rate.

[lichtgilphead]

Just now, strichener said:

So you are on a defined benefit pension.  Thanks for clarifying. 

Yes. My main pension will be a defined benefit pension. The additional AVC's are not linked to any defined benefit, and will depend on the performance of the Pru. What relevance has this to the discussion?

[Left Back]

3 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Yes. My main pension will be a defined benefit pension. The additional AVC's are not linked to any defined benefit, and will depend on the performance of the Pru. What relevance has this to the discussion?

^^^ wants taxes paid to fund his DB scheme but doesn’t want to pay them himself.

[lichtgilphead]

4 minutes ago, Left Back said:

^^^ wants taxes paid to fund his DB scheme but doesn’t want to pay them himself.

More pathetic abuse!

I pay income tax on my taxable income, and am happy to do so.

Edited to add:

Do you work for the Daily Mail and believe that I don't pay pension contributions?

Edited December 15, 2023 by lichtgilphead

[Soapy FFC]

11 minutes ago, Left Back said:

It’s lower in because miracles aside your income in retirement will be lower than income while working.  50-60% of working income is assumed to be a retirement goal.  

Whether people working today have a hope in hell of achieving anything like that is of course up for debate.  Pensions have been performing horrifically for years now.  That might change now interest rates are normalising (compared to historic rates) but UK stock markets are still shite.

I don’t have a crystal ball but I don’t think it’s up for debate that you pay less tax in retirement than you do while working.

But we weren't taking about the whole pension, we were on about additional payments that could be made without paying tax. Put £1000 away in a pension for 20 or 30 years in an investment that has an above inflation return, and you will end up with more than you started in real terms, and hence will probably pay more tax on that part of the pension.

[Left Back]

5 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

More pathetic abuse!

I pay income tax on my taxable income, and am happy to do so.

Edited to add:

Do you work for the Daily Mail and believe that I don't pay pension contributions?

Abuse?  You’re a bit thin skinned aren’t you?  Feel free to report my posts if you think I’m being abusive.  Let me know how you get on

What do you think funds your DB scheme if not taxes, which you stated you were avoiding by increasing your AVC’s?

You make contributions but the taxpayer is doing the heavy lifting on any government DB scheme.  If DB schemes were funded by contributions the private sector wouldn’t have binned them en masse years ago.

[lichtgilphead]

1 minute ago, Left Back said:

Abuse?  You’re a bit thin skinned aren’t you?  Feel free to report my posts if you think I’m being abusive.  Let me know how you get on

What do you think funds your DB scheme if not taxes, which you stated you were avoiding by increasing your AVC’s?

You make contributions but the taxpayer is doing the heavy lifting on any government DB scheme.  If DB schemes were funded by contributions the private sector wouldn’t have binned them en masse years ago.

You obviously know nothing about the LGPS either!

The employers regularly took payment holidays up to the early 2000's. During that period, the employees funded their own pensions in full.. 

Even now, the contributions are roughly 33% employee, 66% employer. 

Compared with the compulsory employer contributions in the private sector, it probably works out around the same overall percentage over my working life (employers contributions average around 6% of salary)

Incidentaly, local government is nominally funded via Council tax, which I pay at the same rate as everyone else.

 

[Molotov]

All this pension and tax discussion really needs to be in a separate thread. IMHO. 
Thank you. 

[Billy Jean King]

I've just read about 4 pages where I think I'm right in saying that the claim is people paying into AVC schemes are tax avoiders. What next ISA savers are tax avoiders ?

AVCs have been around for years and if available to an employee who can afford the salary sacrifice are a no brainer given the benefits.

[Left Back]

15 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

You obviously know nothing about the LGPS either!

The employers regularly took payment holidays up to the early 2000's. During that period, the employees funded their own pensions in full.. 

Even now, the contributions are roughly 33% employee, 66% employer. 

Compared with the compulsory employer contributions in the private sector, it probably works out around the same overall percentage over my working life (employers contributions average around 6% of salary)

Incidentaly, local government is nominally funded via Council tax, which I pay at the same rate as everyone else.

 

Employers contributions of 6% in no way imaginable ever was enough to fund a DB scheme.  Go ask the Pru who you pay your AVC’s to.  They were paying multiples of that to fund their scheme before they closed it to new entrants about 20 years ago then froze it for existing members about 5 years ago.  If it could be funded by such a small contribution as 6% (which a pretty fair percentage of employers kick into DC schemes for employees these days anyway) all the private sector DB schemes wouldn’t be history.

Glad you admit that your scheme is actually funded by the taxpayer but Council Tax isn’t where local government gets most of its funding from Kwasi.  It comes from central government via….

You can fill in the rest yourself.

[lichtgilphead]

3 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Employers contributions of 6% in no way imaginable ever was enough to fund a DB scheme.  Go ask the Pru who you pay your AVC’s to.  They were paying multiples of that to fund their scheme before they closed it to new entrants about 20 years ago then froze it for existing members about 5 years ago.  If it could be funded by such a small contribution as 6% (which a pretty fair percentage of employers kick into DC schemes for employees these days anyway) all the private sector DB schemes wouldn’t be history.

Glad you admit that your scheme is actually funded by the taxpayer but Council Tax isn’t where local government gets most of its funding from Kwasi.  It comes from central government via….

You can fill in the rest yourself.

Are you deliberately misinterpreting what I say?

I said that current employers contributions have averaged around 12% since the early 2000's and that they were often 0% before that. Over my working life to date, this means that the average employer contribution has been roughly 6%. This is simple arithmetic, based upon my years of service.

It's not just my pension scheme that's funded by the taxpayer - it's my whole f*cking salary. That's what working in public service means.

Do I also need to explain the meaning of "nominally" as in "local government is nominally funded by Council tax"

Anyway, now that other posters are starting to complain about you needlessly derailing the thread, you should probably give up.

 

 

 

 

[Jedi2]

Meanwhile....back to Humza