jimbaxters Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 (edited) 7 minutes ago, DA Baracus said: Parts of it. A punishingly boring and terrible read. No, I won't be reading all of it, or even any parts of it, ever. That's the thing. It's like commenting on a film or TV programme when you haven't seen it. I'll divulge this at the risk of getting ridiculed but so be it. I was where you are, sceptical to put it mildly. I decided to read the Bible with the primary aim to pick holes in it and strengthen my arguments. I reached Exodus 10 before accepting Christ as my saviour. That's why I'm saying you should read it but with an open mind. Edited September 2 by jimbaxters 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Manhattan Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 6 minutes ago, jimbaxters said: What I mean is, have you read the Bible? A lot of it, although not all. You'd think all the begats would be more interesting but - unlike Bishop Ussher - I always end up skimming over them. Have you read the Qur'an or the Tanakh, or the Vedas, or the Book of Mormon? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aim Here Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 4 minutes ago, coprolite said: Placing the individual at the centre is very Christian compared to oriental systems. Turning the other cheek instead of retribution is Christian compared so the other Abrahamic religions. None uniquely Christian, but universal morality is very basic. The only way I can see that individualism is 'Christian' is that the biblical view of salvation morphed from one where God is the national God of the Israelites ("our god is better than the other ones, sacrifice to him, or disaster befalls Israel") to an apocalyptic one ("Mark my words, the day will come when the sinners and hypocrites get smited when the Kingdom of Heaven/Messiah/Son of Man comes along and makes Judea Great Again, so obey the Torah") to Paul's version of 'You have to believe in the resurrected Jesus or God will be angry at you when he comes back in a couple of years time'. Is there really any more 'individualism' than that? During the dark ages, when Europe was primarily Christian, you had feudal and serf societies where people's lives were almost totally dictated by whatever social class they were born into, regardless of their individual merits, and people went to war on the whims of their landlords, or they starved. Pretty much the opposite of the modern economic and political ideas of individualism, which really sprang up around the Industrial, French and American revolutions, pretty much coinciding when Christianity *lost* it's stranglehold on social and political thought. And opting to 'turn the other cheek' rather than practice self-defence is hardly any kind of value practiced, advocated for, or legislated for in any Christian society. It's the preserve of a tiny elite few Christian saints and martyrs (and the decidedly non-Christian Gandhi), but it's certainly not a value of modern Western societies, or, as far as I can tell, any other society. Almost nobody advocates it. And in the bible, it's appears in the gospel of Matthew as a practice to strengthen Torah-obedience - if Matthew is to be believed (and he's a lying b*****d at the best of times), it's a doctrine explicitly aimed at *Judaism*. If Christians ever practiced it, they stopped pretty sharpish. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 3 minutes ago, jimbaxters said: That's the thing. It's like commenting on a film or TV programme when you haven't seen it. I'll divulge this at the risk of getting ridiculed but so be it. I was where you are, sceptical to put it mildly. I decided to read the Bible with the primary aim to pick holes in it and strengthen my arguments. I reached Exodus 10 before accepting Christ as my saviour. That's why I'm saying you should read it but with an open mind. Haha, absolutely not. Why would you think a poorly written piece of nonsense would convert me? Presumably if I read the Torah or the Quran or the book of Scientology or any other religious book I would be converted? Have you read the Torah/Quaran/Scientology/etc? Why not? If you have, why didn't they convert you within with the first few chapters? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Manhattan Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 6 minutes ago, DA Baracus said: why didn't they convert you within with the first few chapters? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plumpy Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 12 minutes ago, jimbaxters said: That's the thing. It's like commenting on a film or TV programme when you haven't seen it. I'll divulge this at the risk of getting ridiculed but so be it. I was where you are, sceptical to put it mildly. I decided to read the Bible with the primary aim to pick holes in it and strengthen my arguments. I reached Exodus 10 before accepting Christ as my saviour. That's why I'm saying you should read it but with an open mind. Did you get to the bit about the dinosaurs ? Weren't they important enough ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted September 2 Author Share Posted September 2 5 minutes ago, Aim Here said: The only way I can see that individualism is 'Christian' is that the biblical view of salvation morphed from one where God is the national God of the Israelites ("our god is better than the other ones, sacrifice to him, or disaster befalls Israel") to an apocalyptic one ("Mark my words, the day will come when the sinners and hypocrites get smited when the Kingdom of Heaven/Messiah/Son of Man comes along and makes Judea Great Again, so obey the Torah") to Paul's version of 'You have to believe in the resurrected Jesus or God will be angry at you when he comes back in a couple of years time'. Is there really any more 'individualism' than that? During the dark ages, when Europe was primarily Christian, you had feudal and serf societies where people's lives were almost totally dictated by whatever social class they were born into, regardless of their individual merits, and people went to war on the whims of their landlords, or they starved. Pretty much the opposite of the modern economic and political ideas of individualism, which really sprang up around the Industrial, French and American revolutions, pretty much coinciding when Christianity *lost* it's stranglehold on social and political thought. And opting to 'turn the other cheek' rather than practice self-defence is hardly any kind of value practiced, advocated for, or legislated for in any Christian society. It's the preserve of a tiny elite few Christian saints and martyrs (and the decidedly non-Christian Gandhi), but it's certainly not a value of modern Western societies, or, as far as I can tell, any other society. Almost nobody advocates it. And in the bible, it's appears in the gospel of Matthew as a practice to strengthen Torah-obedience - if Matthew is to be believed (and he's a lying b*****d at the best of times), it's a doctrine explicitly aimed at *Judaism*. If Christians ever practiced it, they stopped pretty sharpish. The individual is the unit that the religion applies to. People can believe or not, be saved, whatever. The worldview is about how individuals relate to god, not about how they fit in a system, or produce harmony, or balance. And something doesn't have to be implemented to be considered a virtue. I'm well aware of the hypocrisy of launching crusades for a "merciful" god. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 10 minutes ago, Doctor Manhattan said: I watched Battlefield Earth and never became a Scientologist. I watched Passion of the Christ and never became a Christian. I watched Orgamzo and never became a Mormon. Haven't seen the Book of Mormon though, so maybe second time lucky. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Manhattan Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 6 minutes ago, DA Baracus said: Haven't seen the Book of Mormon though, so maybe second time lucky. Subtlety is not its strong point, and while it has its moments nothing that comes after quite lives up to the promise of the opening number. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi2 Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 The Scientific view of creation obviously rests on the Big Bang..developed in the mid-1960s. There, you have a random singularity popping into existence (into what was obviously, 'nothingness') exploding, and producing the matter to form the universe, including hydrogen and helium, the basic building blocks of life. What Science doesn't and can't answer, is...where did the singularity come from? Why would it contain elements for life? Or..were there lots of Big Bangs before one of them 'worked'? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Joe Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 47 minutes ago, jimbaxters said: That's the thing. It's like commenting on a film or TV programme when you haven't seen it. I'll divulge this at the risk of getting ridiculed but so be it. I was where you are, sceptical to put it mildly. I decided to read the Bible with the primary aim to pick holes in it and strengthen my arguments. I reached Exodus 10 before accepting Christ as my saviour. That's why I'm saying you should read it but with an open mind. Aye, I agree. I attend mass with the same frequency as I attend East Fife games. I rarely get let down attending the former. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venti Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 39 minutes ago, Plumpy said: Did you get to the bit about the dinosaurs ? Weren't they important enough ? Argentinosaurus must have been a pain in the arse to fit on the Ark. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 1 minute ago, Venti said: Argentinosaurus must have been a pain in the arse to fit on the Ark. Maybe the hand of God squeezed them a bit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venti Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Just now, carpetmonster said: Maybe the hand of God squeezed them a bit. Diego for far too oot his nut. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 33 minutes ago, Jedi2 said: The Scientific view of creation obviously rests on the Big Bang..developed in the mid-1960s. There, you have a random singularity popping into existence (into what was obviously, 'nothingness') exploding, and producing the matter to form the universe, including hydrogen and helium, the basic building blocks of life. What Science doesn't and can't answer, is...where did the singularity come from? Why would it contain elements for life? Or..were there lots of Big Bangs before one of them 'worked'? Religion doesn't answer this either. Nothing does and I don't think we'll ever know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aim Here Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 1 hour ago, Jedi2 said: What Science doesn't and can't answer, is...where did the singularity come from? Why would it contain elements for life? Or..were there lots of Big Bangs before one of them 'worked'? The bible doesn't really answer that either. The Genesis creation starts with something like 'When, in the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth, the earth was without form and void'. In other words, there was some chaotic primordial goop that God rearranged into the cosmos and the bible is silent on how that stuff came about. Some bibles have mistranslated Genesis 1:1 as 'In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth..' and maybe that's where the standard religious makey-uppey version comes from. Regardless, the honest, scientific, 'We have no data as to what was before the Big Bang so we don't really know' is better than the religious 'We made something up. Now believe it or there will be consequences'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotgun Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 "Science doesn't know how it happened so god must've done it", isn't really a very compelling argument. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityDave94 Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 4 hours ago, Shotgun said: "Science doesn't know how it happened so god must've done it", isn't really a very compelling argument. It's an age old one though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 13 hours ago, Aim Here said: Which ones, specifically? Outside of a few Christian-specific laws against blasphemy, for instance, can you point to any laws and values that we only get in Christian societies, as opposed to Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist or various flavours of ancient pagan ones? Just because we happen to have been in a Christian society for the last couple of millennia doesn't mean that codes of laws (a decidedly non-Judeo-Christian invention, note) are necessarily Christian. Japan is one of the few countries in the world that weren't invaded by Christian adventurers - Christian interaction with Japan was pretty much limited to Portugal trying to convert Japanese people in the 16th and early 17th century before being given a clip around the ear and sent packing. Yet somehow, it's notion of laws and values isn't completely at odds with ours. A court system and a judiciary and a code of laws not particularly dissimilar to ours. What's specifically Christian about any of our basic moral values or laws? While I agree with you there are some who would say occupation by America from 1945 to 1952 imposed new systems and values on Japan to replace how they behaved before and during the Pacific War. Having said that Japan has not become Christian and yet it is regarded as a civilised country so your point is correct. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 13 hours ago, Cosmic Joe said: Most of the commandments are merely common sense. Try to love each other Dinnae kill each other Avoid shagging your Pal's missus Dinnae shoplift It's not too difficult.. 3 out of 10 is not most. One says do not kill and yet another says that is exactly what you should do to someone who does not observe the sabbath. How does that make sense? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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