The Christian Theology Education Thread

[Cosmic Joe]

9 minutes ago, milton75 said:

This is how I feel about most religion.

Early Christianity steals/adopts some (but not as many as some people seem to think) pagan and pre-existing religious festivals and that's fine. I suppose in the case of the Jewish ones it makes sense, with Jesus being a reformer. But it's just accepted and not really worth focusing on as far as the Catholic church is concerned.

Then, with the King James bible, various other versions, such as the Geneva Bible informed the discussion, which was essentially by committee, along with the realities of politics at the time. You eventually get the New International Version. This is also fine with Presbyterians who see no issue with various tenets having changed over the centuries.

But, ask them how they feel about any emerging version of Christianity and they don't approve. There's no self-awareness at all.

On the subject of adjusting doctrine to suit modern mores though, I actually have more respect for those that don't. At least stone-age suicide bombers are prepared to stick to their convictions and in a sense that's admirable. Better that than some wishy-washy Vicar deciding it's okay for gays to be in the church, or for an intrinsically patriarchal and misogynist institution such as the Church of Scotland to accept female Ministers. That sort of kowtowing to current societal norms is nothing more than a transparent and hypocritical attempt to stem the flow of arses away from pews.

Acht, you're overthinking things sunshine.

Just try to keep on keeping on being kind to each other would be my message.

Edited September 4 by Cosmic Joe

[Wee-Bey]

Respect to those showing respect here.

 

[VincentGuerin]

23 minutes ago, Cosmic Joe said:

Acht, you're overthinking things sunshine.

Just try to keep on keeping on being kind to each other would be my message.

I think quite a few posters tying themselves in knots as if they're being asked to respect the beliefs others hold. I don't think they are. They're being asked to respect the people who hold them.

I don't believe in God and I don't think it's a reasonable thing to do. But if I meet a religious person it would make me a total arsehole if I started making fun of them or belittling their faith in front of them.

It serves no purpose and I think people who behave like that are usually masking some kind of problems and insecurities of their own.

Unless someone is actively doing bad things, who gives a f**k what they believe? A lot of people need to f**king relax and enjoy life.

[jimbaxters]

28 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

I think quite a few posters tying themselves in knots as if they're being asked to respect the beliefs others hold. I don't think they are. They're being asked to respect the people who hold them.

I don't believe in God and I don't think it's a reasonable thing to do. But if I meet a religious person it would make me a total arsehole if I started making fun of them or belittling their faith in front of them.

It serves no purpose and I think people who behave like that are usually masking some kind of problems and insecurities of their own.

Unless someone is actively doing bad things, who gives a f**k what they believe? A lot of people need to f**king relax and enjoy life.

It really is that easy. Play the ball and not the man, so to speak. 

[CityDave94]

In as far as respect goes, you give someone you don't know that well personally a basic respect even if you before hand don't agree with their religion or politics or whatever. You at least show them some courtesy and manners. People who say that you have to earn their respect are usually entitled and superior to everyone else and the world revolves around them and that they are right all the time. Those are people that should join the others on the Half Man Half Biscuit arrest list (operation less p***ks) to be locked up and held in a barn to be charged with ''annoying the nation''.

Song - Breaking News.

[VincentGuerin]

9 hours ago, Vietnam91 said:

Coming back to Christianity, it's worth remembering the councils of Nicea met to basically cherry pick what was to be included in the bible to suit those in attendance from the Western and Eastern churches. If the words are divine, they don't need an editor.

I don't think this really stands up.

If all just pretend we believe the Bible is truly God's word for a minute for the sake of the discussion;

He still used people to actually write it down. Why wouldn't he use people to compile it? Just seems like a practical necessity to me.

Of course today' religions borrowed/stole from things that went before them. And, personally, I can't say there are any of them that strike me as plausible. But I think in eagerness to discredit them, sometimes people make logical jumps that aren't there or commit inconsistent thinking like the above.

[The DA]

50 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

I think quite a few posters tying themselves in knots as if they're being asked to respect the beliefs others hold. I don't think they are. They're being asked to respect the people who hold them.

I don't believe in God and I don't think it's a reasonable thing to do. But if I meet a religious person it would make me a total arsehole if I started making fun of them or belittling their faith in front of them.

It serves no purpose and I think people who behave like that are usually masking some kind of problems and insecurities of their own.

Unless someone is actively doing bad things, who gives a f**k what they believe? A lot of people need to f**king relax and enjoy life.

Lots of US states currently believe that abortion is murder and punish accordingly.  

[VincentGuerin]

2 minutes ago, The DA said:

Lots of US states currently believe that abortion is murder and punish accordingly.  

Do you live in one of these states? Do you think the level of attention you give this is proportionate to the impact it has on your life?

What you've posted has absolutely no reflection on your average believer living in the UK. None whatsoever. Go to a British church and you'll generally find people are horrified by the American right.

It's worth noting that the Bible differentiates quite clearly between abortion and murder. It's an area of massive disagreement between the Christians who you seem to think are all just think-a-like drones.

Edited September 4 by VincentGuerin

[Vietnam91]

2 hours ago, jimbaxters said:

Or, here's an idea, it's plain manners to be respectful of other people. But then that would not be in line with your four reasons which all point out your belief that everyone with faith could attack you if you disagree. 

Go to a church service and see that ALL that is preached there is love. Honestly.

It would be nice to think that and I wish I could but I've had too many people who seemingly function in society and are allowed to have reproduce approach me due to my previous job and ask if the world is really flat and why aircraft are shown as flying in arcs on maps rather than a direct straight line.

I get in the medieval times frescos and stained glass windows were used to convey the magical stories to the illiterate masses by the clergy and feudal class. But in 2024 most in the West have access to the internet immediately at their fingertips and can find a whole host of information if they were inclined to educate themselves.

I have developed a zero tolerance for stupidity I'm sorry to say. I also have no desire to go to church as I would be to a lecture on Elves, Pixies and Bigfoot.

A lot of my memory of church was a particularly vengeful deity who killed firstborn, turned wives into pillars of salt and a host of other non PC shit.

 

[The DA]

1 minute ago, VincentGuerin said:

Do you live in one of these states? Do you think the level of attention you give this is proportionate to the impact it has on your life?

What you've posted has absolutely no reflection on your average believer living in the UK. None whatsoever. Go to a British church and you'll generally find people are horrified by the American right.

When America sneezes, Europe catches a cold.

[VincentGuerin]

3 minutes ago, The DA said:

When America sneezes, Europe catches a cold.

You're just hitting out with newsflashes and cliches now, so I'll assume you're finished.

Honestly, do yourself a favour and relax about it. Most people who believe are utterly harmless and will have absolutely zero impact on your life.

Not all Christians believe the same things. Hardly any Christians in this country believe what the American right believes. Something like 5% of this country are in favour of abortion becoming illegal. It is a complete non-issue.

You're making this huge problem in your head that isn't really there. The main crime these folk are committing is missing Sunday morning tv, which is one of life's pleasures.

Edited September 4 by VincentGuerin

[jimbaxters]

2 minutes ago, Vietnam91 said:

It would be nice to think that and I wish I could but I've had too many people who seemingly function in society and are allowed to have reproduce approach me due to my previous job and ask if the world is really flat and why aircraft are shown as flying in arcs on maps rather than a direct straight line.

I get in the medieval times frescos and stained glass windows were used to convey the magical stories to the illiterate masses by the clergy and feudal class. But in 2024 most in the West have access to the internet immediately at their fingertips and can find a whole host of information if they were inclined to educate themselves.

I have developed a zero tolerance for stupidity I'm sorry to say. I also have no desire to go to church as I would be to a lecture on Elves, Pixies and Bigfoot.

A lot of my memory of church was a particularly vengeful deity who killed firstborn, turned wives into pillars of salt and a host of other non PC shit.

 

Every text has a context. Again, if you went to church you would hear a piece of that text dissected and used to relate to how people live today but the subtext to all of that analysis is love.

[The Black Flag]

Being challenged in your views is healthy, its good for you. Be open to it.

The people who do, don't shut them down.

Listen, you might learn something.

Debate and or discourse for the w. The way to change someone's world view is to show them through debate that they are wrong or and there is a better way, then let that sink in, let them figure it out for themselves.

That's my tuppence worth thrown in, now I'm off to watch Andrew Wilson on YouTube.

Peace brothers and sisters.

 

[jimbaxters]

1 minute ago, VincentGuerin said:

You're just hitting out with newsflashes and cliches now, so I'll assume you're finished.

Honestly, do yourself a favour and relax about it. Most people who believe are utterly harmless and will have absolutely zero impact on your life.

Not all Christians believe the same things. Hardly any Christians in this country believe what the American right believes.

You're making this huge problem in your head that isn't really there. The main crime these folk are committing is missing Sunday morning tv, which is one of life's pleasures.

Tell me you're not including Rimmer and Lovejoy in that.

[VincentGuerin]

Just now, jimbaxters said:

Tell me you're not including Rimmer and Lovejoy in that.

I can't f**king stand Lovejoy, but it's Sunday morning. I watch sometimes and pretend the missus makes me do it.

[Vietnam91]

3 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

I don't think this really stands up.

If all just pretend we believe the Bible is truly God's word for a minute for the sake of the discussion;

He still used people to actually write it down. Why wouldn't he use people to compile it? Just seems like a practical necessity to me.

Of course today' religions borrowed/stole from things that went before them. And, personally, I can't say there are any of them that strike me as plausible. But I think in eagerness to discredit them, sometimes people make logical jumps that aren't there or commit inconsistent thinking like the above.

The council of Nicea had to come up with the conundrum of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and crowbar that as canon. They also left out gospels such as that of Thomas found as part of the Red Sea scrolls. Cast out because it essentially said there was no need for organised religion, a ruling class or ornate buildings, you can have a covenant with God anywhere, at any time.

I have nocissue with mortals compiling it but plenty was omitted because it didn't suit those doing the compiling.

When your employment and 7th century mortgage depend on ritual and faff, I'd say you're incentivised despite what the white bearded fella in the clouds thinks.

[VincentGuerin]

Just now, Vietnam91 said:

The council of Nicea had to come up with the conundrum of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and crowbar that as canon. They also left out gospels such as that of Thomas found as part of the Red Sea scrolls. Cast out because it essentially said there was no need for organised religion, a ruling class or ornate buildings, you can have a covenant with God anywhere, at any time.

I have nocissue with mortals compiling it but plenty was omitted because it didn't suit those doing the compiling.

When your employment and 7th century mortgage depend on ritual and faff, I'd say you're incentivised despite what the white bearded fella in the clouds thinks.

I know what the Council of Nicea was. The point is that it's existence isn't some kind of zinger argument against God.

If you believe that God inspired the writing of the Bible, it's a perfectly reasonable logical follow on that he inspired its compilation. So, of course those compiling it would have done the job the way he wanted.

It's not a valid argument.

[Boo Khaki]

2 hours ago, milton75 said:

 Respecting someone's right to believe that Elvis is still alive. That they were anally probed by aliens... We don't respect these things because they are nonsense.

How f**king dare you? 

[VincentGuerin]

3 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

How f**king dare you? 

--- Crying in the chapel, imo ---

[Vietnam91]

1 minute ago, VincentGuerin said:

I know what the Council of Nicea was. The point is that it's existence isn't some kind of zinger argument against God.

If you believe that God inspired the writing of the Bible, it's a perfectly reasonable logical follow on that he inspired its compilation. So, of course those compiling it would have done the job the way he wanted.

It's not a valid argument.

Yet an old puppet-master living in the sky possessing/directing people is valid? 300 years on the big fella decided the Jews goosed it and he was switching sides.

The council of Nicea is the ultimate zinger, a man made construct to engineer plausibility to another made made construct. It illustrates perfectly how humans are motivated by self interest. Which still exists today in every society and level within it.

My argument doesn't involve the supernatural.