Should the SNP campaign for the same status as NI?

[btb]

As it says on the tin should the SNP campaign for the same deal as NI either as an ends in itself or as a stepping stone to full independence?

[ICTChris]

Be more like Northern Ireland is not a vote winner IMHO.

[ICTJohnboy]

10 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Be more like Northern Ireland is not a vote winner IMHO.

 

It could be if it got us back into the single market.

[btb]

4 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

It could be if it got us back into the single market.

That's my opinion and it undercuts the ProjectFear argument about border checkpoints at Gretna & Berwick - I also reckon if The Glimmer Twins approve it for NI they can't legitimately argue against it for Scotland.

Edited February 27, 2023 by btb

[sparky88]

The 'Stormont brake' is potentially lots of trouble for the EU and NI in the future. rUK will be hoping they can stay out of future disputes.

Edited February 27, 2023 by sparky88

[flyingscot]

16 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

The 'Stormont brake' is potentially lots of trouble for the EU and NI in the future. rUK will be hoping they can stay out of future disputes.

Potentially, but that relies on Stormont not being suspended

[sparky88]

13 minutes ago, flyingscot said:

Potentially, but that relies on Stormont not being suspended

Very true.

 

Steve Baker has just pronounced on Radio 4 that NI being in both the EU Customs Union and UK single markets is a massive opportunity.  Biggest self own i have ever heard.

[LongTimeLurker]

Think this was floated by Nicola Sturgeon at one point but was quickly shot down at Westminster for obvious reasons related to where the land and sea borders are in both cases. If NI starts to do well out of having a foot in both camps hopefully it will make more people think about whether a complete U-turn on Brexit would be the better way to go.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, btb said:

As it says on the tin should the SNP campaign for the same deal as NI either as an ends in itself or as a stepping stone to full independence?

Yes, just to point out than there's no adamantine bar to an independent Scotland having frictionless access to both the EU and rUk markets, for individuals as well as businesses. Rather than claiming NI has an unfair advantage. 

[Leith Green]

16 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

Very true.

 

Steve Baker has just pronounced on Radio 4 that NI being in both the EU Customs Union and UK single markets is a massive opportunity.  Biggest self own i have ever heard.

Is a massive onanist

[sophia]

1 hour ago, btb said:

That's my opinion and it undercuts the ProjectFear argument about border checkpoints at Gretna & Berwick - I also reckon if The Glimmer Twins approve it for NI they can't legitimately argue against it for Scotland.

They won't go around and around or hang fire on this. No mixed emotions they'd let it loose.

 

[sparky88]

46 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think this was floated by Nicola Sturgeon at one point but was quickly shot down at Westminster for obvious reasons related to where the land and sea borders are in both cases. If NI starts to do well out of having a foot in both camps hopefully it will make more people think about whether a complete U-turn on Brexit would be the better way to go.

It's had its feet in both camps since 2020 and has done very well out of it, even accounting for the increase in paperwork. The casualty of Johnson's deal was Northern Irish Unionism, not Northern Ireland.

Expecting to see businesses relocate to NI now.

Edited February 27, 2023 by sparky88

[Billy Jean King]

Blah blah, sausages, blah blah, seed potatoes, blah blah shrubs.......

[Michael W]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Yes, just to point out than there's no adamantine bar to an independent Scotland having frictionless access to both the EU and rUk markets, for individuals as well as businesses. Rather than claiming NI has an unfair advantage. 

Assuming said independent Scotland is in the EU, there is absolutely no chance the EU would allow one of its Member States to have such an advantageous arrangement that the rest of its members didn't benefit from. The only reason NI has the arrangement it does is because of the Good Friday Agreement.

Northern Ireland is also notably not an independent country and is part of the UK. Moreover, trade between NI and GB is not now frictionless; there are formalities involved, albeit focussed on the GB-NI movements rather than the NI-GB movements, for which the UK assumes a fairly sizeable fiscal risk. The EU does, after all, need to protect its Single Market. The UK has been more lax where it has discretion to try and avoid pissing off NI Unionists. 

 

[welshbairn]

7 minutes ago, Michael W said:

Assuming said independent Scotland is in the EU, there is absolutely no chance the EU would allow one of its Member States to have such an advantageous arrangement that the rest of its members didn't benefit from. The only reason NI has the arrangement it does is because of the Good Friday Agreement.

Northern Ireland is also notably not an independent country and is part of the UK. Moreover, trade between NI and GB is not now frictionless; there are formalities involved, albeit focussed on the GB-NI movements rather than the NI-GB movements, for which the UK assumes a fairly sizeable fiscal risk. The EU does, after all, need to protect its Single Market. The UK has been more lax where it has discretion to try and avoid pissing off NI Unionists. 

 

Liechtenstein has a very similar deal with both the EU and Swiss single markets. NI is just another example of the EU allowing 'boutique' arrangements to swerve around the normally rigid single market rules. 

[oneteaminglasgow]

Failed Statelet 2: Electric Boogaloo

[GNU_Linux]

NEVER NEVER NEVER

[Kejan]

Shows you how little England/the UK government knows or even cares about NI being British etc that they thought Loyalists would be happy with the original deal.

I know a person from NI (think he was/is loyalist) but said "Northern Ireland is the b*****d child, that England wants rid of and Ireland doesn't actually want " 

 

[Michael W]

23 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Liechtenstein has a very similar deal with both the EU and Swiss single markets. NI is just another example of the EU allowing 'boutique' arrangements to swerve around the normally rigid single market rules. 

Lichtenstein is largely part of the Single Market, with some exceptions. As is Switzerland through the numerous EU-CH agreements in place. The UK (minus NI), is not part of the Single Market, with NI only remaining part owing to ensure that an international agreement (to which an EU Member State is a signatory) is upheld.  

You also need a customs declaration to send goods from the EU to Lichtenstein and vice-versa (presumably the case also from Switzerland to Lichtenstein). That isn't frictionless trade. The EU does indeed have a deal with Lichtenstein and harmonisation through the EEA agreement/Single Market etc, but it is not an all-encompasing, frictionless deal, even if it removes many barriers. 

And at any rate, it's not a valid comparison to the point that was being made. All EU countries trade on Lichtenstein on the same terms, with no Member State enjoying 'frictionless' trade as an exception. In the example provided, (Scotland having frictionless trade with both the EU and the rest if the UK), this will only happen if: 

Scotland stays in the UK and the UK rejoins the EU; or

If independent and in the EU, the rest of the UK rejoins the EU as well.  

Future EU-rUK agreements where an independent Scotland is concerned would of course be  possible, but they will be for all of the EU to benefit from and not just a select part of it. And, at any rate, it won't be frictionless unless rUK rejoins. Or, should it be "joins", since it'd be a different State to the one that was formerly a Member?

 

[welshbairn]

5 minutes ago, Michael W said:

presumably the case also from Switzerland to Lichtenstein

I doubt it, they share a currency and there are zero border checks. Their Schengen agreement deal shows how flexible and pragmatic the EU can be when it suits.

Quote

On 28 February 2008, Liechtenstein signed the Schengen Agreement and became part of the Schengen Area on 19 December 2011. Before this, Switzerland shared an open border with Liechtenstein and was already a full Schengen Area member. This open border was not considered a threat to European security because it would be highly difficult to enter Liechtenstein without first landing in or entering a Schengen state. The border with Austria was not open, and it was treated as an external border post by Austria and Liechtenstein, making it necessary to pass through customs and passport control before crossing.

Liechtenstein signed a Schengen association agreement with the European Union on 28 February 2008, and originally planned to join the Schengen Area on 1 November 2009. However, ratification was initially delayed at the behest of Sweden and Germany who felt that Liechtenstein had not done enough to fight tax evasion; the Council of Ministers eventually consented to the ratification of the protocol on 7 March 2011, with the protocol entering into force a month later. Liechtenstein was due to join the Schengen Area by the end of 2011 and did so on 19 December.

Although a member of the European Economic Area Liechtenstein does not adhere to the free movement of labour unlike every other member of the European Union and EFTA because its small size and relative prosperity mean that it is vulnerable to high immigration.