Sportsmen/women who fell off a cliff

[scottsdad]

Another F1 driver - Jacques Villeneuve. In the mid-90s he was a superstar in American racing. Came to F1 in 1996 and was runner-up in his maiden season to Damon Hill, then became champion in 1997.

In 1998 the whole Williams team fell off a cliff but he still out-drove the pisspoor car. Then his career dived hard. He joined the new BAR team that was a dog's dinner. Finished 21st in the standings in 1999. For me though the real drop came in 2001. He was in an accident that killed a marshal in Australia and after that, he was no longer outperforming bad cars, but underperforming everywhere. He drove for Renault and Sauber and was rotten at both. He's never been competitive anywhere since.

[BFTD]

On 17/03/2023 at 00:42, djchapsticks said:

Leigh Griffiths' fall was quick and spectacular.

Should still be kicking a ball at a high level at only 32, instead he's playing in the Australian 3rd division.

Anthony Stokes as well. Career done by 30 and now finds himself getting lifted on suspicion of dealing charlie back in Ireland.

I suppose you could make a case that some of Scotland's most talented attacking players of the last generation made a c**t of their careers through self-inflicted injuries. O'Connor, Goodwillie, Riordan all spring to mind. Bit of a weird one.

[Boo Khaki]

On 16/03/2023 at 21:03, Savage Henry said:

Any number of number 1 overall NFL picks.  Ryan Leaf being the most profile.  That Johnny Football halfwit as well. 

Leaf wasn't a #1 overall, but aye, the NFL is littered with QB's taken high who totally flamed out for a whole gamut of reasons.

The Leaf pick was totally understandable at the time, and he didn't want for physical ability, his problems were entirely mental health and personality related. Manziel never had the physiological tools to be an effective NFL QB, so it was a mystery to me why he was drafted in the first place, never mind the fact that he was also a notorious party-animal, showed no inclination towards any sort of professional discipline, and had 'this guy is a moron who will bust' stamped all over him for years even before he was draft eligible. Sometimes the 'mistake' is entirely foreseeable and the blame lies entirely with the idiocy of the organisation that drafted them rather than the player himself. Manziel never at any point hid what he was, whereas with Leaf it was a slightly different era and teams didn't have the tools available to them that they do now.

Leaf and Russell are still talked about because of things that happened off the field more than what happened on it, but there are plenty of other guys who were high picks who totally bombed, but they sank without trace entirely and didn't do anything noteworthy on or off the field, so nobody really remembers them. The year after Leaf was drafted Tim Couch went #1 overall and Akili Smith #3. Couch wasn't a true bust because he meandered along playing at a mediocre level for 3 or 4 seasons, got beaten to death playing behind a crappy OL, then disappeared, whereas Smith did absolutely nothing of note and was playing in the World League by the time he was 30. Derek Carr's elder brother David was a similar story to Couch. Taken #1 overall, genuinely talented, but got smashed to bits playing behind laughable protection and was pretty much done as an NFL starter within 3-4 years.

If you go back and look at the drafts in the 70's and 80's its even more egregious how often players just bombed completely. The tops of those drafts are full of players who barely played 1 or 2 seasons and a few here and there who never played at all.

On 17/03/2023 at 08:40, ICTChris said:

Meanwhile, the guy who almost slipped out of the first round, Lamar Jackson, has been voted MVP and is one of the best QBs in the league, likely to get seriously rich in the next few weeks.  Some NFL executives said Jackson should try out as a wide receiver!

The year before, da Bears traded up one spot to take Mitch Trubisky when DeShaun Watson and Patrick Mahomes were on the board.  I don't recall anyone at the time suggesting either of those guys should've gone high either.

Jackson isn't remotely close to being a top NFL QB. it's all hype based on the fact he makes spectacular plays with his legs, which obscures the fact he's a mediocre passer who struggles with the mental aspect of the game. He's the Michael Vick/RGIII of the 2020's, and I think his career will pan out much the same way as those guys. Josh Allen was really the 'Mahomes' prospect in that draft class, a potential boom-or-bust pick with a huge ceiling but also a risk to flame out. Darnold went into a shitty situation that didn't help him one iota, and while Mayfield's was a bit more stable, it was still the Browns and they will inevitably find ways to make things more difficult than they should be. Mayfield playing badly hurt for most of the 2021 season was a bit unfortunate because that was really the make-or-break year for him and prior to that he'd shown he was capable of being a perfectly viable NFL starter.

Trubisky was a totally understandable pick because he came out of college by far the most polished and pro-ready of that cohort of QB's. Watson wasn't far behind, but with Mahomes there was a feeling he wasn't quite ready for NFL duty, that his freebooting in college might see him get into a lot of bother in the pros, but that if he sat and learned for a year or two then he had the intangibles to perhaps be a very intriguing NFL prospect. At the time Philip Rivers was starting to look creaky and there was a bit of chatter about taking a QB to replace him. My view was that the only prospect I'd be interested in in that draft was Mahomes, but only on the proviso I could sit him for a couple of years. If I had been in charge of a team that needed to take a Day 1 starter then I'd also have taken Trubisky, but the truth is that was perceived as a very weak QB class overall, so it's not really a surprise that Trubisky didn't really develop on a poor Bears team because he wasn't regarded as a sure thing to begin with. It was no shock to anyone that Kizer bombed, and nobody would really have been all that surprised if Mahomes and Watson failed either, so the reality with that draft class is there were three guys who were viewed as 'maybes', and two of the three made it, one didn't, although I think Watson really needs to pull his finger out next season and prove he's still the QB he was 2-3 years back.

As I mentioned up the post, a lot of the time the team is as much to blame for these guys not panning out as the player themselves. They don't go in to equitable situations, so I think there are obvious cases where a guy flourishes or fails, when if you hypothetically put the exact same player into a slightly different situation you'd get a completely different result. Tom Brady comes to mind. A lot is made about 'how could a guy who is perceived as a GOAT and won 7 SB's or something have lasted to the 6th round?'. Well, in that draft the Chargers head coach Mike Riley wanted to take Brady with the Chargers' 3rd, and 5th round picks. They needed a QB because this was at the backend of the Leaf debacle. Bobby Beathard vetoed it both times because he considered him a UDFA level talent at best, and Brady went to the Pats and we all know what happened. If the Chargers had drafted Brady I strongly suspect we'd all be sitting here saying 'Tom who? Oh, that guy who achieved absolutely nothing and was out of the league after a couple of years?' because the Chargers were totally dysfunctional at the time and Brady honestly didn't have the talent to overcome that sort of situation. Likewise, if the Chargers had actually drafted Mahomes when I wanted them to, then I think they'd probably have been looking for another QB already because Anthony Lynn is certainly no Andy Reid, and Drew Brees would never have become a HoF 20 year career player had he stayed in SD and had to play through Norv Turner, Mike McCoy, and 10 years of shitty OL that Philip Rivers had to deal with.

[Boo Khaki]

@scottsdad

JV was actually comparatively OK in the Sauber because he'd knuckled down on his attitude by that point, but there's no denying the middle part of his career was totally underwhelming. I think he came to F1 thinking Williams would give him a front-running car for as long as he decided he wanted to be there, so I think the loss of the Renault engine for '98 was a really rude awakening for him and I think he dumped his attitude and never really rediscovered it until he realised he was on his last legs at Sauber.

Regards Mika Hakkinen - I don't really believe his 2001 meltdown was anything to do with becoming a father. He'd had 4 straight years of having to give absolutely 100%, 100% of the time to even try to stay competitive with Schumi, and I think the stress of that totally broke him. That era Shumi was an absolute machine and I think he would have even got the better of peak Senna, so MH taking two WC's and pushing him close for a 3rd is an astounding achievement, even though it required superior machinery and a Schumi leg-break to do it. I can only imagine the stress, commitment, energy, dedication and grit required to get there, and given MH always seemed like quite a chilled and laid-back guy, I think he probably had to become a person he really wasn't for a while in order to do so, and that must have been a huge mental load that would inevitably take it's toll at some point. 

I am not and never have been a fan of McLaren the team, but seeing MH having the emotional moment behind the wall endeared me to him as a bloke and as a driver, and although I was 100% Schumi at the time I look back on that period and view MH a lot differently now than I did then.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Boo Khaki

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

On 16/03/2023 at 11:58, Zen Archer (Raconteur) said:

Robin Friday's short career comes to mind.

Robin Friday - Wikipedia

Just watched a YouTube video about him.

Hero.

Edited March 31, 2023 by CarrbridgeSaintee

[Willie adie]

Jim Courier, was world number 1 for a while in tennis then wasn't 

Joe Johnson 1986 world snooker champion this 50 -1 shot gave Steve Davis his second consecutive beating at the crucible final , the year after saw a repeat of the final with Davis exacting revenge, Johnson the quickly slipped down the rankings.

Keith Deller,  1983 world darts champion, in a year that saw Dundee utd win the Scottish League, Aberdeen win the cup winners cup it was a year of the underdogs, Deller did nothing after that win.

[BFTD]

19 hours ago, Willie adie said:

Joe Johnson 1986 world snooker champion this 50 -1 shot gave Steve Davis his second consecutive beating at the crucible final , the year after saw a repeat of the final with Davis exacting revenge, Johnson the quickly slipped down the rankings.

I was just reading something about Joe Johnson - I remember him from the time, but was too young to pay much attention. I'd always just assumed he was one of the top players of the Eighties. Wild how he had a couple of brief periods of excellent form, seemingly out of nowhere. Bit like Greece suddenly winning Euro 2004.

Is there such a thing as performance-enhancing drugs in snooker?

[tongue_tied_danny]

On 16/03/2023 at 11:58, Zen Archer (Raconteur) said:

Robin Friday's short career comes to mind.

Robin Friday - Wikipedia

Friday sounds like a total fucking dick.

I can't understand why he's considered to be cool... is it because some tosser from Oasis bigged him up?

[Waal]

51 minutes ago, tongue_tied_danny said:

Friday sounds like a total fucking dick.

I can't understand why he's considered to be cool... is it because some tosser from Oasis bigged him up?

Did you read the bit about booting Mark Lawrenson in the face?

[Molotov]

7 hours ago, BTFD said:

Is there such a thing as performance-enhancing drugs in snooker?

Not sure performance enhancing but I used to play pool better after a few pints.
 

This guy took it to extreme measures

From wiki:

“Big Bill Werbeniuk was noted for the copious amounts of alcohol he consumed before and during matches – at least six pints before a match and then one pint for each frame. In total, he drank between 40 and 50 pints of lager per day. Doctors advised Werbeniuk to drink alcohol to counteract a familial benign essential tremor. Later in his career he also took propranolol, a beta blocker, to cope with the effects of his alcohol consumption on his heart.

Werbeniuk was reported to have successfully claimed the cost of 6 pints of lager before every match as a tax deductible expense.

Some of Werbeniuk's alleged feats of drinking include: 76 cans of lager during a game with John Spencer in Australia in the 1970s; 43 pints of lager in a snooker match/drinking contest against Scotsman Eddie Sinclair in which, after Sinclair had passed out following his 42nd pint, Werbeniuk was reported to say "I'm away to the bar now for a proper drink";28 pints of lager and 16 whiskies over the course of 11 frames during a match against Nigel Bond, in January 1990 – after which Werbeniuk then consumed an entire bottle of Scotch to "drown his sorrows" after losing the match.”

[Busta Nut]

On 17/03/2023 at 08:40, ICTChris said:

and is one of the best QBs in the league

I don't think he is and you'll see him falter soon enough

[Busta Nut]

On 29/03/2023 at 06:00, Boo Khaki said:

Jackson isn't remotely close to being a top NFL QB. it's all hype based on the fact he makes spectacular plays with his legs, which obscures the fact he's a mediocre passer who struggles with the mental aspect of the game. He's the Michael Vick/RGIII of the 2020's, and I think his career will pan out much the same way as those guys.

Sorry I see you had this covered

[Satoshi]

On 17/03/2023 at 08:42, djchapsticks said:

Leigh Griffiths' fall was quick and spectacular.

Should still be kicking a ball at a high level at only 32, instead he's playing in the Australian 3rd division.

Anthony Stokes as well. Career done by 30 and now finds himself getting lifted on suspicion of dealing charlie back in Ireland.

I didn't actually know about the Stokes charge but it is a particularly unsurprising development. Boy will be spending a decent chunk of his playing retirement in jail I think.

Very interesting thread. A name you don't hear enough of in discussions like this is Wayne Rooney, he only managed more than 20 league goals twice and the last time was when he was 27.

In his last four seasons in the EPL he was averaging a goal only every 3.3 games. Now you could say that's because he was playing midfield, but really he was only playing there because he couldn't cope as a forward any more.

He was 31 when Man Utd released him, and 32 when Everton released him a year early.

Compared to many of his contemporaries this is a cliff edge early decline. All the fags, takeaways and playing senior football from age 16 can't have helped.

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

Wayne Rooney is Man United’s top ever goalscorer, top three in the Premier League era, 50+ goals for England, multiple league titles, FA Cup, a Champions League. He had an incredible career, perhaps he retired earlier than some of his contemporaries but he was also playing at the top level at 16, which very few are. Don’t think it’s fair to list him alongside any of the names on this thread tbh. 

[Satoshi]

He was done at the top level by his early 30s. Most players of his generation lasted a lot longer than that.

And others who did fall off early, like Kaka or Owen, can blame it on injuries. Rooney didn't really have major injuries, it was mostly down to his lack of professionalism.

Bales form also fell off a bit of a cliff.

Also, given this thread contains multiple world record holders (with asterisks) the fact Rooney used to be good can't disqualify him from a massive, unexpected decline in form.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Satoshi

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

47 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

He was done at the top level by his early 30s. Most players of his generation lasted a lot longer than that.

And others who did fall off early, like Kaka or Owen, can blame it on injuries. Rooney didn't really have major injuries, it was mostly down to his lack of professionalism.

Bales form also fell off a bit of a cliff.

Also, given this thread contains multiple world record holders (with asterisks) the fact Rooney used to be good can't disqualify him from a massive, unexpected decline in form.

Rooney played 16 years in the Premier League, amassing nearly 500 league appearances and almost another 100 in the Champions League, winning multiple trophies and becoming top scorer ever for the league’s biggest club. Could you highlight which other names in this thread have anywhere close to his longevity?

Who are his contemporaries as top Premier League strikers? Probably Henry, Aguero, Fowler, Owen, Drogba, Shearer. Apart from Shearer the others hardly had much longer at the top level before fucking off to China/America or being crippled by injuries. Maybe a year or two maximum. Early 30s is the start of every player’s decline. Sure, Rooney probably a couple of years quicker than most but he burst onto the scene much earlier. He’s not mentioned in these sorts of conversations due to his incredible career & length of time at the top.

 

 

[Satoshi]

And, as pointed out, he was getting pretty crap for the last four of those seasons. Certainly no where near his best, he was noticeably in decline by his late 20s.

His contemporaries aren't just in the Premier League, guys like Ronaldo, Ibrahimovic or Lewandowski were playing at the top long after Rooney's early decline.

His England team mates like Gerrard or Lampard also managed far longer.

For context, it would be like Kane suddenly becoming a bit rubbish this season at 29. It would be a big surprise.

It's down to Rooney's notoriously poor diet and his lack of professionalism, relative to his elite contemporaries.

Fowler is also a good example of a player who shone briefly but brightly, then quickly became terrible.

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

I’m not going to explain this to you again.

1. He had a long career at the top level (16 years in the EPL). Similar number of appearances to the likes of Gerrard who apparently played for ‘far longer’. 

2. His decline was fairly gradual, over a number of seasons towards the end of his Man United career. It did not ‘fall of a cliff’.
 

 

 

 

[Satoshi]

He was done at the top level in his early 30s and massively decline had set in by late 20s.

Meanwhile guys like Lewandowski, Ronaldo and Ibrahimovic playing at the top level well into their mid 30s.

And it was down to his notoriously poor professionalism and diet.

[scottsdad]

On 08/07/2023 at 16:31, Satoshi said:

He was done at the top level in his early 30s and massively decline had set in by late 20s.

Meanwhile guys like Lewandowski, Ronaldo and Ibrahimovic playing at the top level well into their mid 30s.

And it was down to his notoriously poor professionalism and diet.

Thing to remember is that Rooney is younger than Ronaldo. If he acted like Ronaldo in terms of training, eating and avoiding grannies he would have lasted longer. 

That said, @Bonksy+HisChristianParadeis right. He wasn't amazing one year and shite the next. It took 3 or 4 seasons.