Glasgow teacher murder

[TxRover]

3 hours ago, Stephen Malkmus said:

Maybe we should also be sparing a thought for the mental and physical wellbeing of the women living with the men with these issues.

The biggest problem (in both the UK and the U.S.) is neither side of this tragic situation received any of the assistance they likely needed. She was likely on the receiving end of at least minor abuse, deliberate or situationally induced, and didn’t have any understanding of the danger she faced and the resources to help her…he was likely similar, not capable of understanding the depth and darkness of his situation. The situation in the UK seems to be trending the way of the situation here in the U.S.

To use a recent (U.S.) case I’m familiar with, a spouse with a deteriorating mental condition lashed out, was arrested and released with no attempt to address the issue…returned because there was no other option…left…returned…and made at least two more physical attacks before the other spouse could remove themselves and the child from the environment. Calls to mental health resources basically said “if the spouse hasn’t threatened harm to themselves or others, very little can be done”…”if the spouse has caused harm, it’s a police matter”…it is, to use a phrase, mental!

There are limited resources for people to get away, but they require basically abandoning nearly everything, which isn’t practical and causes, sometimes deadly, delays.

On the suicide by train/truck/car theme, we also should probably be pushing for better treatment for the drivers/engineers involved in these situations, as they are as much a victim as the family of the deceased.

[G_&_T]

5 hours ago, Stephen Malkmus said:

Maybe we should also be sparing a thought for the mental and physical wellbeing of the women living with the men with these issues.

I think everybody has basically suggested that those women would be a lot safer if the men they lived with received the appropriate treatment. Incidents like this could perhaps be avoided. 

[budmiester1]

18 hours ago, TxRover said:

The biggest problem (in both the UK and the U.S.) is neither side of this tragic situation received any of the assistance they likely needed. She was likely on the receiving end of at least minor abuse, deliberate or situationally induced, and didn’t have any understanding of the danger she faced and the resources to help her…he was likely similar, not capable of understanding the depth and darkness of his situation. The situation in the UK seems to be trending the way of the situation here in the U.S.

To use a recent (U.S.) case I’m familiar with, a spouse with a deteriorating mental condition lashed out, was arrested and released with no attempt to address the issue…returned because there was no other option…left…returned…and made at least two more physical attacks before the other spouse could remove themselves and the child from the environment. Calls to mental health resources basically said “if the spouse hasn’t threatened harm to themselves or others, very little can be done”…”if the spouse has caused harm, it’s a police matter”…it is, to use a phrase, mental!

There are limited resources for people to get away, but they require basically abandoning nearly everything, which isn’t practical and causes, sometimes deadly, delays.

On the suicide by train/truck/car theme, we also should probably be pushing for better treatment for the drivers/engineers involved in these situations, as they are as much a victim as the family of the deceased.

In regards to your last sentence I dealt with a suicide on the Glasgow Subway at Govan, I spoke to the driver and he was distraught with what had happened, I found out about a year later that he had left the Subway as he could no longer drive the train. 

[ICTChris]

I’ve seen a couple of articles about this case, friends and family of the couple.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/disbelief-at-kind-and-gentle-fiance-who-killed-primary-school-teacher-marelle-sturrock-6xt5c3gbb
 

I guess the guy could have had a complete psychotic break and done this but I’m not sure how common that is. I’m sure there are many many people who suffer from domestic abuse and never tell anyone and for these people to be puzzled by what happens subsequently.

[velo army]

Similar to the Baby P tragedy in Haringey a few years back, this has again got me thinking about the continued atomisation of society and its effects. There's two strands to this for me. Mental health professionals and therapists are tasked with treating ailments caused by abject loneliness and alienation. It makes a lot of it a bit pointless, or at least it's the wrong medicine continually prescribed.

I mind thinking about Baby P and thinking that someone would have seen bruises on his face, either in a shop or elsewhere, but said nothing. I'm wondering if there were the signs of domestic abuse with this woman but nobody was looking, or turned away telling themselves it was none of their business.

 

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, velo army said:

I'm wondering if there were the signs of domestic abuse with this woman but nobody was looking, or turned away telling themselves it was none of their business.

The huge problem here is domestic abuse is, all too often, a very stealthy thing. Society, as a whole, has a vision of domestic violence/abuse as a large controlling man slapping around a smaller woman who explains away the bruises as stumbling down the stairs or being clumsy. Here’s the really ugly reality, size is generally irrelevant in an abuse scenario. All too often the smaller partner may be the violent one, with the large partner being afraid to respond or complain because they expect the police or friends to be disbelieving. In the more conventional cases of the larger partner being the abuser, the police often come across as cynical or unhelpful because time after time the case or charges cannot be pressed because the abused recant or refuse to assist in prosecution.

There is often an unwillingness to pursue escape or taking action against an abuser due to societal expectations or embarrassment/fear. All too often the willingness to act occurs at a point where the abuse has escalated to, or beyond, the point of danger to life. All to often it takes an act that genuinely threatens one’s life to make it clear what is happening, although a competent counselor can often help an abused partner to realize what is happening isn’t normal or acceptable.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

On 28/04/2023 at 07:25, budmiester1 said:

The level of mental health care here is shameful, In my past employment I had to deal regularly with the consequences of mental health problems and it’s highly likely that I had to deal with your friends suicide ( Milliken Park ?) I’ve lost count of the number of people who have been turned away from help who then taken their lives shortly afterwards. To me it’s the complete lack of mental resources available on the NHS. The railway have now to their credit implemented a Samaritan helpline and according to my ex colleagues it is helping a good deal. We as a nation really need to invest heavily in mental health.

You wouldnt believe how bad its got even since you’ve left. 

[ICTChris]

There are also cases where domestic abuse doesn't extend to violence, until a shocking escalation.  I was listening to a story about the case of Lance Hart, who murdered his wife and daughter. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Spalding_shooting

Hart had never been violent to his family but was coercive and controlling - his sons have spoken about their life with him, the way he controlled the family and how people reacted to his death.  People spoke about Hart as a "great guy" who loved DIY and was friendly.  In reality, he was extremely controlling and abusive, even going so far as to keep the family in relatively poor circumstances to prevent his wife from leaving.  When his sons grew up they began to help plan for their mother and sister to escape and the week they moved out, Hart murdered them.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/22/man-mother-sister-killed-father-lance-hart-spalding-leicestershire

He had never been violent until he killed them.

[Guest ICTFCwife]

37 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

There are also cases where domestic abuse doesn't extend to violence, until a shocking escalation.  I was listening to a story about the case of Lance Hart, who murdered his wife and daughter. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Spalding_shooting

Hart had never been violent to his family but was coercive and controlling - his sons have spoken about their life with him, the way he controlled the family and how people reacted to his death.  People spoke about Hart as a "great guy" who loved DIY and was friendly.  In reality, he was extremely controlling and abusive, even going so far as to keep the family in relatively poor circumstances to prevent his wife from leaving.  When his sons grew up they began to help plan for their mother and sister to escape and the week they moved out, Hart murdered them.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/22/man-mother-sister-killed-father-lance-hart-spalding-leicestershire

He had never been violent until he killed them.

That’s just it most of these abusers appear on the outside to be a “great guy” but behind closed doors they are controlling and abusive. I think social media has a huge part to play in all of this because abusers can psychologically abuse as many people as they want electronically and with todays technology they have the ability to do so anonymously and without a trace. What people fail to see is abuse isn’t always physical either. Just because someone doesn’t have marks or scars externally doesn’t mean they’ve not scars internally i.e from years of psychological abuse. Which a lot of people don’t realise is as much of a crime as physical abuse.  Abusers try to isolate the victim from their family/friends giving ultimatums such as “it’s your family or me”.Repeatedly putting them down,telling them they are worthless.Which psychologically can scar someone just as much as physical abuse if not worse.Making threats or using intimidation or manipulation to control their partner i.e. threatening to harm themselves or kill themselves if their partner ever left them or using things like sex to control them i.e.things like orgasm denial,withholding sex/affection to gain control over their partner. The abusive partner usually gaslights their partner tries to blame them for their actions.They never take responsibility for it. It’s behaviours such as these that then lead to an outburst of aggression/anger from the abuser which potentially could lead to violence. Unfortunately this sort of abuse is happening more and more and I think if somehow we were manage to tackle it before it got to the violent/aggression stage then a lot of these instances could be reduced. The issue is however a lot of victims that have been abused have been conditioned by the abuser not to speak out.

[TxRover]

3 minutes ago, ICTFCwife said:

That’s just it most of these abusers appear on the outside to be a “great guy” but behind closed doors they are controlling and abusive. I think social media has a huge part to play in all of this because abusers can psychologically abuse as many people as they want electronically and with todays technology they have the ability to do so anonymously and without a trace. What people fail to see is abuse isn’t always physical either. Just because someone doesn’t have marks or scars externally doesn’t mean they’ve not scars internally i.e from years of psychological abuse. Which a lot of people don’t realise is as much of a crime as physical abuse.  Abusers try to isolate the victim from their family/friends giving ultimatums such as “it’s your family or me”.Repeatedly putting them down,telling them they are worthless.Which psychologically can scar someone just as much as physical abuse if not worse.Making threats or using intimidation or manipulation to control their partner i.e. threatening to harm themselves or kill themselves if their partner ever left them or using things like sex to control them i.e.things like orgasm denial,withholding sex/affection to gain control over their partner. The abusive partner usually gaslights their partner tries to blame them for their actions.They never take responsibility for it. It’s behaviours such as these that then lead to an outburst of aggression/anger from the abuser which potentially could lead to violence. Unfortunately this sort of abuse is happening more and more and I think if somehow we were manage to tackle it before it got to the violent/aggression stage then a lot of these instances could be reduced. The issue is however a lot of victims that have been abused have been conditioned by the abuser not to speak out.

Spot on, the abuser often uses phrases that suggest THEY are the victim as part of the gaslighting strategy, either intentionally or perhaps as a result of a dysfunctional childhood. In many cases they genuinely believe this, which makes it even worse.

[Guest ICTFCwife]

1 hour ago, TxRover said:

Spot on, the abuser often uses phrases that suggest THEY are the victim as part of the gaslighting strategy, either intentionally or perhaps as a result of a dysfunctional childhood. In many cases they genuinely believe this, which makes it even worse.

That’s it in a nutshell they create a false narrative that they’ll share to anyone I.e “smear campaign” isolating the victim even more because they feel they won’t be believed if they ever do speak out. I’ve noticed a lot of abusers blame their abusive behaviour on their mental health but a friend of mine that’s a police officer said people with mental health issues still know when to stop at a traffic light showing red in other words they know right from wrong and know what they are doing. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by ICTFCwife

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, ICTFCwife said:

That’s it in a nutshell they create a false narrative that they’ll share to anyone I.e “smear campaign” isolating the victim even more because they feel they won’t be believed if they ever do speak out. I’ve noticed a lot of abusers blame their abusive behaviour on their mental health but a friend of mine that’s a police officer said people with mental health issues still know when to stop at a traffic light showing red in other words they know right from wrong and know what they are doing. 

There is a sociopathic element in there, which explains the following the red lights, while treating other people as resources to be harvested.

[Guest ICTFCwife]

23 minutes ago, TxRover said:

There is a sociopathic element in there, which explains the following the red lights, while treating other people as resources to be harvested.

Resources or objects to them. 

[IrishBhoy]

On 28/04/2023 at 14:45, TxRover said:

On the suicide by train/truck/car theme, we also should probably be pushing for better treatment for the drivers/engineers involved in these situations, as they are as much a victim as the family of the deceased.

I’ve been a contractor in the rail industry for the past 8 years or so and I’ve worked in depots all over the UK, and unfortunately I’ve had had to deal with stock being brought into the depot due to train strikes on an almost monthly basis. As you have hinted at the train drivers take on a huge burden when someone decides to end their life by stepping in front of a train. When I worked in London on the west coast main line Virgin fleet I know that a driver involved in a train strike was entitled to an initial 3 months paid leave. If the same driver was unlucky enough to have to deal with another train strike they were offered a package which would take into account their length of service and they would basically get a pay off. Not to be insensitive here but these pay offs were usually very lucrative and most drivers were happy to take the package. I think most rail franchises operate a similar system and try to protect their drivers from these situations. 
 

I spent a couple of years at Scotrails Shield Road depot and they have a designated pit outside the shed which is solely for pressure washing human remains from the underside of a train. Again, it was something which happened far too often and was not a pleasant job for the guy that had to go under. On a couple of occasions the British Transport Police came in and left with a bag containing the deceased’s eyeballs, parts of their brain matter or shards of bone that had been stuck in the undercarriage of the train. It must be a horrific sight for the first responders on the scene. 

[Hedgecutter]

On 08/05/2023 at 15:42, velo army said:

I mind thinking about Baby P and thinking that someone would have seen bruises on his face, either in a shop or elsewhere, but said nothing. I'm wondering if there were the signs of domestic abuse with this woman but nobody was looking, or turned away telling themselves it was none of their business.

FWIW, I remember a work quiz at the time when one team entered with the name 'The Black Eyed Baby Ps'.

Fair to say that it did not go down particularly well with the boss.

[velo army]

Just now, Hedgecutter said:

FWIW, I remember a work quiz at the time when one team entered with the name 'The Black Eyed Baby Ps'.

Fair to say that it did not go down particularly well with the boss.

That's absolutely fucking grim. 

Also pretty clever and funny, but you'd have to really know your crowd to allow yourself to laugh at that.

Reminds me of school where, no matter what awful tragedy had happened (Dunblane being a notable exception), there was always an abundance of jokes the following day.

[budmiester1]

7 hours ago, IrishBhoy said:

I’ve been a contractor in the rail industry for the past 8 years or so and I’ve worked in depots all over the UK, and unfortunately I’ve had had to deal with stock being brought into the depot due to train strikes on an almost monthly basis. As you have hinted at the train drivers take on a huge burden when someone decides to end their life by stepping in front of a train. When I worked in London on the west coast main line Virgin fleet I know that a driver involved in a train strike was entitled to an initial 3 months paid leave. If the same driver was unlucky enough to have to deal with another train strike they were offered a package which would take into account their length of service and they would basically get a pay off. Not to be insensitive here but these pay offs were usually very lucrative and most drivers were happy to take the package. I think most rail franchises operate a similar system and try to protect their drivers from these situations. 
 

I spent a couple of years at Scotrails Shield Road depot and they have a designated pit outside the shed which is solely for pressure washing human remains from the underside of a train. Again, it was something which happened far too often and was not a pleasant job for the guy that had to go under. On a couple of occasions the British Transport Police came in and left with a bag containing the deceased’s eyeballs, parts of their brain matter or shards of bone that had been stuck in the undercarriage of the train. It must be a horrific sight for the first responders on the scene. 

I think one of the grimmest fatalities I attended was out at Carluke, a young lad stepped out in front of a Pendolino, not a lot of him left intact and the worst bit was finding his face lying in the four foot, not good

 

On another note it’s been reported that the Met will no longer attend mental health calls, I wonder how long before this will spread to other forces?

Edited May 29, 2023 by budmiester1
Additional information

[Theroadlesstravelled]

That’s really sad. We’ve failed as a society when someone kills themself.

We’re not Canada.

[Central Belt Caley]

26 minutes ago, budmiester1 said:

I think one of the grimmest fatalities I attended was out at Carluke, a young lad stepped out in front of a Pendolino, not a lot of him left intact and the worst bit was finding his face lying in the four foot, not good

 

On another note it’s been reported that the Met will no longer attend mental health calls, I wonder how long before this will spread to other forces?

Other forces are already doing this, I think Humberside started doing it a while back. Their chief gave the NHS and social work in their area notice to say they’d only be attending Police jobs going forward and from a specific date started pushing back on what they attended. 
 

Also, the Met will still attend where there is a threat to life. 

[IrishBhoy]

45 minutes ago, budmiester1 said:

I think one of the grimmest fatalities I attended was out at Carluke, a young lad stepped out in front of a Pendolino, not a lot of him left intact and the worst bit was finding his face lying in the four foot, not good

 

On another note it’s been reported that the Met will no longer attend mental health calls, I wonder how long before this will spread to other forces?

That’s horrific to hear, it must be horrible to get the call to attend a suicide on the railway. Those Pendo’s are travelling at 100mph and I can only imagine what that impact would do to a human body. I know sometimes these incidents weigh heavily on the train drivers mind but there is literally nothing they can do, even if they see the person from half a mile away. They can slam their brakes into emergency stop but that then risks the lives of the passengers on board. It’s easy for me to say because I’ve never been in the situation but they shouldn’t feel any sense of guilt, although I imagine it would be hard to get your head round.