Steve Clarke - in/out/general discussion

[ScottishZizou]

1 hour ago, Scary Bear said:

We’re talking about Scotland who can never get past the group stages and who had a song titled ‘Don’t Come Home Too Soon” as their anthem at the last World Cup they were at.

Steve Clarke’s done just fine. If we do our usual and get papped out in the group stage it won’t exactly be a shock.

You could pretty much write it now. Plucky performance in the opener with the hosts, where we lose to a late goal, but put in a performance that has everyone saying “do that against the other two and we’ll be fine”. Spirited draw with Switzerland. Unlucky defeat to Hungary. 

Yes but that's exactly the point. Getting out the groups now is the same as getting to the tournament historically. No-one thinks it's going to be easy to get out the group but it's as easy as it was to qualify for the euros pre 2016. We likely would have qualified more than once for euros 2000,2004,2008,2012 if they were 24 team tournaments. Since 2016 it's been possible for:

Italy, Wales, Switzerland, Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands, Austria, Ukraine, England, Croatia, Czech Republic, Sweden, Spain, France, Germany, Portugal, Slovakia, Poland, Northern Ireland, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland

all to get through the groups at the Euros. And it's too much to expect Scotland to do something that some of those countries have done? There are others who haven't but have gone to the World cup like Serbia. Why should we not be able to get to the last 16 if Iceland, Northern Ireland, Slovakia and Ireland can with our squad?

[Scary Bear]

4 minutes ago, ScottishZizou said:

Yes but that's exactly the point. Getting out the groups now is the same as getting to the tournament historically. No-one thinks it's going to be easy to get out the group but it's as easy as it was to qualify for the euros pre 2016. We likely would have qualified more than once for euros 2000,2004,2008,2012 if they were 24 team tournaments. Since 2016 it's been possible for:

Italy, Wales, Switzerland, Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands, Austria, Ukraine, England, Croatia, Czech Republic, Sweden, Spain, France, Germany, Portugal, Slovakia, Poland, Northern Ireland, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland

all to get through the groups at the Euros. And it's too much to expect Scotland to do something that some of those countries have done? There are others who haven't but have gone to the World cup like Serbia. Why should we not be able to get to the last 16 if Iceland, Northern Ireland, Slovakia and Ireland can with our squad?

I would say to judge the current manager as a failure if we don’t progress in Euro 2024 would be a harsh judgement, given the history of the Scottish National Team at major tournaments is a history of underperforming and non-qualification.

Still, I suppose we’ll need to qualify from a group at some tournament. Might as well be this one. The centre of the defence is still suspect and we don’t have any prolific forwards, but hopefully McTominay can come to the rescue again.

[RandomGuy.]

Wales got to the Euro Quarters by beating Slovakia, Russia, and Northern Ireland, while having one of the best players on the planet.

The win over Belgium was a great result but we have results like that in us too.

I'd argue our current side could achieve that with a similar draw.

[Burattino Di Calzini]

In my mind, qualifying for the Euros with this squad is a par score. Our midfield is excellent, but the rest of the squad is not great. We are vulnerable defensively, especially if Hickey is not fit. Up front, we simply do not have a top class striker, and haven't had for years. Griffiths could have been that player, but sadly that didn't materialise. I wouldn't say it would necessarily be a failure if we didn't get out of the group, but that would probably depend on the specific circumstances.

[Ewanandmoreagain]

36 minutes ago, Scary Bear said:

I would say to judge the current manager as a failure if we don’t progress in Euro 2024 would be a harsh judgement, given the history of the Scottish National Team at major tournaments is a history of underperforming and non-qualification.

Still, I suppose we’ll need to qualify from a group at some tournament. Might as well be this one. The centre of the defence is still suspect and we don’t have any prolific forwards, but hopefully McTominay can come to the rescue again.

at corners

 

This !

 

( just joking ! )

[Steve Carrella]

The general reaction to last night's friendly is actually mind-boggling.  The criticism of individual players and manager is beyond nonsensical. As a 66 year old I've seen Scotland hitting relative highs but more commonly witnessed absolute drivel. I know of players who did not want to be selected, players who've called off for no genuine reason and players who went through the motions on the pitch. Anyone having a pop at the current set up needs to take a reality check and understand where we have come from. This squad will give everything they have to succeed,  if it's not enough so be it but it won't be because they don't care. Whilst I wouldn't have welcomed a 4 -0 defeat we need to get it in context. Identifying issues is the main purpose of these pre tournament friendlies and playing a high quality side away from home will certainly do that. I like the fact that Robbo was gutted after that game and that they know they need to arrive in Germany in a better shape. Bizarrely,  I prefer Scotland going into a something of this magnitude not being full of themselves  - 1978 anyone? So, please stop gurning, get behind the lads and appreciate how far they've taken us.

[Bing.McCrosby]

4 hours ago, Scary Bear said:

We’re talking about Scotland who can never get past the group stages and who had a song titled ‘Don’t Come Home Too Soon” as their anthem at the last World Cup they were at.

Steve Clarke’s done just fine. If we do our usual and get papped out in the group stage it won’t exactly be a shock.

You could pretty much write it now. Plucky performance in the opener with the hosts, where we lose to a late goal, but put in a performance that has everyone saying “do that against the other two and we’ll be fine”. Spirited draw with Switzerland. Unlucky defeat to Hungary. 

Were not at all, were talking about this Scotland team right now.

What other teams did with different players is completely irrelevant.

[Jambomo]

4 hours ago, Steve Carrella said:

The general reaction to last night's friendly is actually mind-boggling.  The criticism of individual players and manager is beyond nonsensical. As a 66 year old I've seen Scotland hitting relative highs but more commonly witnessed absolute drivel. I know of players who did not want to be selected, players who've called off for no genuine reason and players who went through the motions on the pitch. Anyone having a pop at the current set up needs to take a reality check and understand where we have come from. This squad will give everything they have to succeed,  if it's not enough so be it but it won't be because they don't care. Whilst I wouldn't have welcomed a 4 -0 defeat we need to get it in context. Identifying issues is the main purpose of these pre tournament friendlies and playing a high quality side away from home will certainly do that. I like the fact that Robbo was gutted after that game and that they know they need to arrive in Germany in a better shape. Bizarrely,  I prefer Scotland going into a something of this magnitude not being full of themselves  - 1978 anyone? So, please stop gurning, get behind the lads and appreciate how far they've taken us.

This is the best post I’ve seen on this. Some of the (over) reactions have been mad. 

[Scary Bear]

13 hours ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

Were not at all, were talking about this Scotland team right now.

What other teams did with different players is completely irrelevant.

Those other teams from history are the benchmark. Some of those teams had much better players than we have now.

Anyway, let’s come back to this at the end of June. 

[The Moonster]

16 hours ago, ScottishZizou said:

Yes but that's exactly the point. Getting out the groups now is the same as getting to the tournament historically. No-one thinks it's going to be easy to get out the group but it's as easy as it was to qualify for the euros pre 2016. We likely would have qualified more than once for euros 2000,2004,2008,2012 if they were 24 team tournaments. Since 2016 it's been possible for:

Italy, Wales, Switzerland, Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands, Austria, Ukraine, England, Croatia, Czech Republic, Sweden, Spain, France, Germany, Portugal, Slovakia, Poland, Northern Ireland, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland

all to get through the groups at the Euros. And it's too much to expect Scotland to do something that some of those countries have done? There are others who haven't but have gone to the World cup like Serbia. Why should we not be able to get to the last 16 if Iceland, Northern Ireland, Slovakia and Ireland can with our squad?

I have confidence we could do it, I just don't think we should sack the manager and dub him a failure if we don't, which you must realise is fucking mental. 

[ahemps]

18 hours ago, tree house tam said:

Anyone who thinks a Group with the host country Germany and Europe's most improved side Hungary is going to be easy is fucking deluded. We're around Switzerlands level and I think we have a decent chance against them but we could quite easily get scudded in the other two. Especially if we don't have our best 11 fit and ready. Steve Clarke should be judged in how many tournaments we qualify for and if we give a decent account of ourselves when we get there. A decent account is playing well and not getting thumped by the big nations. Folk thinking ahead of this are the same types that probably thought Scotland were winning Argentina 78.

I agree it is a difficult draw and we are the lowest ranked side so not finishing last would be seen as being better than expected form outside.

Switzerland are ranked above Hungary though and once you remove Slobozlai the rest of the Hungary squad looks very basic. If you look at the Swiss squad it actually looks more impressive with more players playing at more top teams.

I don't know as I have not seen them but Hungary must be very well organized and are getting more than the sum of their parts.

[ScottishZizou]

41 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I have confidence we could do it, I just don't think we should sack the manager and dub him a failure if we don't, which you must realise is fucking mental. 

I agree that would be mental but isn't what I have said anywhere. I feel like some people are wanting to engage in a separate debate with people who do think Clarke has been a failure. You can thread the needle between being neither successful or a failure by just being Ok which is what Clarke has done. He has done nothing out of the ordinary, in fact less than many other countries have achieved with close to equal resource but has kept us relevant. Reaching the last 24 of Europe is fine, if we were to get papped out in the groups again after bottling the Ukraine playoff then it's hard to say it's been a roaring success when so many other countries have achieved more than us over the last decade. 

[tree house tam]

12 minutes ago, ahemps said:

I agree it is a difficult draw and we are the lowest ranked side so not finishing last would be seen as being better than expected form outside.

 

 

Switzerland are ranked above Hungary though and once you remove Slobozlai the rest of the Hungary squad looks very basic. If you look at the Swiss squad it actually looks more impressive with more players playing at more top teams.

I don't know as I have not seen them but Hungary must be very well organized and are getting more than the sum of their parts.

Switzerland have good players but always look beatable to me, solid-ish and unremarkable for the 'names' they have.

Hungary are going to surprise you, they certainly can play and will need nowhere near the chances we had on Friday to score.

Germany have changed the squad again for the build up to the tournament and have some exceptional talent. Their result last night highlights this.

[The Moonster]

25 minutes ago, ScottishZizou said:

I agree that would be mental but isn't what I have said anywhere. I feel like some people are wanting to engage in a separate debate with people who do think Clarke has been a failure. You can thread the needle between being neither successful or a failure by just being Ok which is what Clarke has done. He has done nothing out of the ordinary, in fact less than many other countries have achieved with close to equal resource but has kept us relevant. Reaching the last 24 of Europe is fine, if we were to get papped out in the groups again after bottling the Ukraine playoff then it's hard to say it's been a roaring success when so many other countries have achieved more than us over the last decade. 

You said below if we don't get through the groups you can't call it a success...what is it then if it's not success? And to clarify, if he doesn't take us through the groups you don't think he should be sacked? Why would this be "tenure defining" then?

23 hours ago, ScottishZizou said:

Think this Euro’s performance will define the Clarke era. He has been a good Scotland manager but failure to get through the groups here and it’s tough to say his tenure has been a success. If we don’t get through it will be multiple instances of falling short of achieving anything substantial like making the last 16 of the euros or making a World Cup. Get through here and it will be a proper achievement. 

Wales, Ireland and Northern Ireland have all made it out the groups at a Euros in the last decade. If he were to have two attempts and not achieve the same it would be pretty poor. We have been more consistent but achieved nothing yet that is beyond our capabilities. It seems a bit arbitrary that three games can define so many years but that’s just the nature of international management 

 

[Bing.McCrosby]

2 hours ago, Scary Bear said:

Those other teams from history are the benchmark. Some of those teams had much better players than we have now.

Anyway, let’s come back to this at the end of June. 

Ok, im gonna use the Hungarian team from the 50s, and morton of 94

[Binos]

22 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

Ok, im gonna use the Hungarian team from the 50s, and morton of 94

Brazil 82?

[Binos]

1 hour ago, tree house tam said:

Switzerland have good players but always look beatable to me, solid-ish and unremarkable for the 'names' they have.

Hungary are going to surprise you, they certainly can play and will need nowhere near the chances we had on Friday to score.

Germany have changed the squad again for the build up to the tournament and have some exceptional talent. Their result last night highlights this.

It's the group of death 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

3 hours ago, Scary Bear said:

Those other teams from history are the benchmark. Some of those teams had much better players than we have now.

 

Arguably the 1978 squad and we know what happened there !

 

( also 74 , 82 , ..

[ScottishZizou]

2 hours ago, The Moonster said:

You said below if we don't get through the groups you can't call it a success...what is it then if it's not success? And to clarify, if he doesn't take us through the groups you don't think he should be sacked? Why would this be "tenure defining" then?

 

Something can simultaneously be not a success and not a failure. Failure would be not making the euros, success would be getting into the last 16. Just getting to the tournament would be par for the course. In the same way that as an Aberdeen fan if we finish 3rd/4th and get to a couple semi finals it's not a successful season as we haven't performed above expectation but it wouldn't be a failure like this season has been.

It's tenure defining because if he achieves it then he will have done something out of the ordinary and elevated himself beyond just doing what should be done as the Scotland manager and I would say his tenure would be looked on favourably. If we don't get out of the groups here after also failing to at Euro 2020 and bottling the playoff v Ukraine then I think his tenure will be looked back on as a missed opportunity. It might seem harsh but international football is a smaller sample size. If we fail to get through the groups there should be discussions about whether Clarke is the right person to take us over that hurdle after there being a repeated pattern of him not being able to. At that point it would be fair to conclude either way that he is close and should stay or it would be fair to say that someone else should get a crack at it. All of this is hypothetical as getting through the group is a real possibility. 

[MarkoP]

The group we’ve got means anything is possible 

It’s unfortunate we’ve got Germany first as unless we pull of an unexpected result there we already have pressure on us after the first match

I wouldn’t be surprised with any final group position tbh

Although I’m not really expecting us to top it