Steve Clarke - in/out/general discussion

[Bing.McCrosby]

2 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

I'm an online account. Why would that cheer you up?

Well as you admit, your alot more than one account 

[Melanius Mullarkey]

3 hours ago, SH Panda said:

Sweden and Greece would have rather qualified and had our three matches than not qualify at all.

You mean Euro winners Greece and regular "gets out of the group stages" Sweden?

Its great to get to all the World Cups in a row etc but with the mentality of just being there is good enough, they're beaten before the games begin.  

Anyway, who's up for getting one of they mad c***s in that you normally find managing LIberia or Togo?

[TheScarf]

2 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkey said:

You mean Euro winners Greece and regular "gets out of the group stages" Sweden?

Its great to get to all the World Cups in a row etc but with the mentality of just being there is good enough, they're beaten before the games begin.  

Anyway, who's up for getting one of they mad c***s in that you normally find managing LIberia or Togo?

What about that absolute ride who always seems to be managing in the AFCON?  French guy I think he is.

[forameus]

43 minutes ago, Pocketman said:

In terms of set-up, approach, own demeanour etc etc I fail to see what Moyes will offer that will be different from Clarke. If Clarke were to decide to step down, and probably this a good time for him to do so, then appointing Moyes would be akin to asking Clarke to sign a new contract after resigning. 

Ultimately it's the managerial equivalent of the Steven Fletcher/Jordan Rhodes argument.  Person currently in a role isn't doing a good enough job, so the person that can (maybe) do that job but currently isn't is championed as the solution to our problems.

And of course both Steven Fletcher and Jordan Rhodes went on to share the Ballon D'Or for the years following, so justified.

[2426255]

34 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

It isn’t so much about the formation, as the personnel last nights formation lead to. 

When we are chasing a goal and the game is getting stretched do we want three centre halves who can’t move the ball progressively, or an extra creative midfielder or striker that can support us going forward. 

Starting with three centre halves was absolutely fine, he just took far far too long to change it. 

I don't know the reasoning behind the decisions to take off Robertson or Gilmour for example or keep players on and I'm surprised people haven't made more out of that as it seems in line with outcome based fan reaction.

There are issues. There were issues in this game and part of the journey is finding a way to overcome those issues. I think a fan analysis after the game isn't going to reveal what they were - It's always sack the manager, sell the players. Then there's how well did Hungary defend? In my opinion it's more to do with trying to succeed at a more difficult level of competition against better opponents who make fewer mistakes. It puts in bold what we're bad at and dulls what we're good at. 

12 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

Well as you admit, your alot more than one account 

I already admitted to that. I don't see it as a big deal. Just part and parcel of the forums is it not?

[No_Problemo]

1 minute ago, 2426255 said:

I don't know the reasoning behind the decisions to take off Robertson or Gilmour for example or keep players on and I'm surprised people haven't made more out of that as it seems in line with outcome based fan reaction.

There are issues. There were issues in this game and part of the journey is finding a way to overcome those issues. I think a fan analysis after the game isn't going to reveal what they were. It's always sack the manager, sell the players. Then there's how well did Hungary defend? In my opinion it's more to do with trying to succeed at a more difficult level of competition against better opponents who make fewer mistakes. It puts in bold what we're bad at and dulls what we're good at. 

I already admitted to that. I don't see it as a big deal. Just part and parcel of the forums is it not?

Robertson limped off, so I assume that was why. 

You always knew Gilmour would come off, but my biggest issue was with McGinn. 

[Diamonds are Forever]

2 hours ago, bennett said:

 

He's one step away from shouting we won the Falklands war.

 

 

 

 

Interested to know what he thinks 'the language' of a European competition is, or should be. The referee's main language is spoken by one of the playing nations, so presumably he thinks everyone should just have to speak English. I'd wager the ref has excellent English anyway, and probably not Hungarian. 

Got no issue with a rant about the decision, especially in the heat of the moment. But comments like that don't come across well at all and have no relevance to the decision.

[Iain]

1 hour ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

Not suggesting it makes any tangible difference, but how is Grant Hanley's shot near the end that the keeper saved not considered an attempt on target from inside the area?

[Bing.McCrosby]

18 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkey said:

You mean Euro winners Greece and regular "gets out of the group stages" Sweden?

Its great to get to all the World Cups in a row etc but with the mentality of just being there is good enough, they're beaten before the games begin.  

Anyway, who's up for getting one of they mad c***s in that you normally find managing LIberia or Togo?

Tbh I doubt either Greece or Sweden would swap not qualifying if the offer is they get to make themselves look like donkeys on the world stage.

[Lex]

Just now, Iain said:

Not suggesting it makes any tangible difference, but how is Grant Hanley's shot near the end that the keeper saved not considered an attempt on target from inside the area?

Because a foul was given before it.

Must win game and not a single shot on target.

Remarkable, really. 

[2426255]

12 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

Robertson limped off, so I assume that was why. 

You always knew Gilmour would come off, but my biggest issue was with McGinn. 

Fair enough. Taking a step back from that I think most people are venting their spleen and not seeing the bigger picture. When you start trying to tie together two variables it's not pointing to the problem, but it is pointing to how the fans are feeling: i.e. unhappy, emotional, wanting to hit something.

That crushing disappointment will pass and we'll still have the same issues in both boxes. It's a problem we've overcome before and we have to do it again. 

Edited June 24 by 2426255

[Gordon EF]

Must win game against a fairly mediocre team at this level and 0 shots on target. That in itself is absolutely fucking appalling.

Always liked Clarke, and I've defended him before. But this Scotland side should be going to 24 team Euros.

We've improved in Clarke's time, we've had some great results and runs and he's taken us from total shambles to a competent team who can punch above our weight on occasion. Thanks for that Stevie. If he leaves now, I think he'll still be remembered largely fondly as Scotland manager.

But we need a little bit of ambition to take tye next step and actually go world cups or get out of a ducking group stage. Is Clarke the man for this? Evidence suggests not. Time to get in someone who can.

[gerrymcc1978]

There’s a way to qualify for a tournament , Clarke has done that but when the level of quality  increases , you can’t get away with just trying to stay in games , other teams will hurt you and we made very little attempt to take risks and effect the other teams 

[Bad Wolf]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

We see the exact same with 4atb. We saw it against Northern Ireland and everyone said there wasn't enough movement up front. Teams being 'ponderous' in possession isn't unique to 3atb. I don't recognise the link that you're trying to make.

Correlation doesn't equal causation: it's not me being smart, but it is smart to realise that sometimes even if two variables show a correlation that doesn't imply causation. 

My opposition to three at the back is quite straightforward - we don't have three decent centre-backs, haven't had for years, and show no signs of developing them. Furthermore, I have now reached the stage where my solution to the Tierney-Robertson conundrum has gone from playing the latter as a more or less out and out winger to dropping him on the eminently sensible grounds that he has been pish for most of the last two seasons.

[2426255]

7 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

My opposition to three at the back is quite straightforward - we don't have three decent centre-backs, haven't had for years, and show no signs of developing them. Furthermore, I have now reached the stage where my solution to the Tierney-Robertson conundrum has gone from playing the latter as a more or less out and out winger to dropping him on the eminently sensible grounds that he has been pish for most of the last two seasons.

I don't agree with the last statement. Robertson has been good for us taken over the whole of Clarke's tenure. We need solutions as we've encountered problems, but that's normal if you're trying to step up a level. I understand your first point, I also don't agree with it. The three centre-backs is not the issue in my eyes, I've explained why at length and am happy to do so again if you like.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

40 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

What about that absolute ride who always seems to be managing in the AFCON?  French guy I think he is.

Thats the boy I was thinking about. 

[FalkirkBairn2021]

It's fitting that the ref almost certainly speaks far better English than Steve Clarke.

Edited June 24 by FalkirkBairn2021

[ScottishZizou]

Here is a list of all of the countries who have achieved a greater feat that Scotland since the Euros were expanded to 24 teams and have got out of a group:

1- France 2- Switzerland 3- Wales 4- England 5- Slovakia 6- Germany 7- Poland 8- Northern Ireland 9- Croatia 10- Spain 11- Italy 12- Belgium 13- Ireland 14- Hungary 15- Iceland 16- Portugal 17- Netherlands 18- Austria 19- Ukraine 20- Czech Republic 21- Sweden 22- Denmark.

As things stand right now, 23- Slovenia, 24- Romania, 25- Turkey will be added to this list. Potentially they might not but there is also the possibility Albania, Georgia or Serbia could take their place or qualify too so it seems fair to assume this list will be up to around 25.

We have achieved NOTHING extraordinary in terms of major tournaments, we have done less than almost every other non-tinpot nation in Europe. 

Clarke has broken the not qualifying for tournaments thing when it's never been easier to do so then routinely crapped the bed when we have had a chance to do something, including the playoff loss to Ukraine. He simply has to go.

[AuldReekie]

2 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

My opposition to three at the back is quite straightforward - we don't have three decent centre-backs, haven't had for years, and show no signs of developing them. Furthermore, I have now reached the stage where my solution to the Tierney-Robertson conundrum has gone from playing the latter as a more or less out and out winger to dropping him on the eminently sensible grounds that he has been pish for most of the last two seasons.

Tierney hardly been great too. 18 months ago, it felt like the entire squad peaked and today, and it feels like most of the squad are injured or out of form. The reality is we're likely to be somewhere in the middle. When it comes to judging Clarke though, the question has to be weather he helped or hindered the performance of players:

• Robertson was clearly struggling so why play him in a role that asked him to run the length of the park?
• Ralston performed pretty well overall but was he similarly exposed in the wingback role when a full back role might have been more suitable?
• On top of this, and faced with little outlets in the last 3rd of the park, waste it overly negative to play 3 centre halves?
• Were McGregor and Gilmour too similar and adopting the same tactic?
• Adams takes a tonne of stick but Clarke did him dirty - utter scraps to feed off and removes him when suddenly opts to adopt an attacking formation

The two most frustrating aspects to last night were the utter failure to try something different until 10 minutes of the tournament remained, and the number of times the centre halves slowed down play at every opportunity. Both of these issues are entirely on the management team and significantly more impactful than individual player performances or even the specific formation.

I don't want to wait another 4 years to find out if Clarke has learned from these mistakes. He's done his time and we should thank him massively for the last 5 or so years, but I'd be happy giving someone else a go and see what they can do. 

[2426255]

8 minutes ago, ScottishZizou said:

We have achieved NOTHING extraordinary in terms of major tournaments, we have done less than almost every other non-tinpot nation in Europe. 

I don't think achieving something extraordinary should be the minimum. He has been brought in to achieve the goals he has been set and he's done that. We are trying to build up the game in this country and to do that we need to qualify for major tournaments first and foremost. That's why he won't be sacked, because he's achieving what he needs to.