Dundee United 23/24

[Granny Danger]

I no longer have a season ticket but if I did I would forego the voucher.

Whatever Ogren’s motivation (and I certainly can’t work it out) he’s sunk a huge amount of money into the club.  Yes there has been mismanagement but getting rid of Ashgar is a huge step in the right direction in rectifying the management problems at the club.

 

[ArabFC]

57 minutes ago, Steven W said:

Think all of that is correct.

Going by Capuano's quote a few posts up, he's saying that taking up the offer will have an impact on the playing budget. A guilt trip basically 

We've pretty much (or are in the process of) punting any player on a decent wage and signed Championship players to replace them.

Are we pretending we're going to be splashing out anytime soon?

[Steven W]

He's asking us to pay Premiership prices for a Championship product.

If Tesco asked me to pay Waitrose prices for their lasagne, I'd tell them to get stuffed 

[Pull My Strings]

13 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I no longer have a season ticket but if I did I would forego the voucher.

Whatever Ogren’s motivation (and I certainly can’t work it out) he’s sunk a huge amount of money into the club.  Yes there has been mismanagement but getting rid of Ashgar is a huge step in the right direction in rectifying the management problems at the club.

 

I don't disagree but why make the stupid offer in the first place if you're then going to try to row back on it. It just feels insulting. I was fairly sure when I renewed that we were going down and I was content to pay for the ticket without the need for a discount voucher. It just feels grubby, like the offer during the covid season that we'd get a sizeable discount on the following year's ticket and then they made it extremely difficult for anyone wanting them to honour that promise (only available after loyalty period had ended, no guarantee you could keep your seat, etc.). 

It leaves a bad taste in the mouth. If you can't afford to honour your promises then don't make those promises in the first place. 

I won't apply for vouchers because I agree that we're skint and the money is needed elsewhere but I also won't be asking them to put my name up in the tunnel, ffs. 

This summer should have been a chance for a fresh start for the club but very little seems to have changed in terms of fan engagement. No updates or highlights from any of the pre-season games, maybe the media team are too busy firing out tweets advertising hospitality and tatty leisurewear every five minutes. I'm not impressed.

[Granny Danger]

16 minutes ago, Pull My Strings said:

I don't disagree but why make the stupid offer in the first place if you're then going to try to row back on it. It just feels insulting. I was fairly sure when I renewed that we were going down and I was content to pay for the ticket without the need for a discount voucher. It just feels grubby, like the offer during the covid season that we'd get a sizeable discount on the following year's ticket and then they made it extremely difficult for anyone wanting them to honour that promise (only available after loyalty period had ended, no guarantee you could keep your seat, etc.). 

It leaves a bad taste in the mouth. If you can't afford to honour your promises then don't make those promises in the first place. 

I won't apply for vouchers because I agree that we're skint and the money is needed elsewhere but I also won't be asking them to put my name up in the tunnel, ffs. 

This summer should have been a chance for a fresh start for the club but very little seems to have changed in terms of fan engagement. No updates or highlights from any of the pre-season games, maybe the media team are too busy firing out tweets advertising hospitality and tatty leisurewear every five minutes. I'm not impressed.

I suppose I’m not so easily insulted…

ETA - I think any change within the club will be incremental.  More/better engagement with the fans would be good, hopefully it will follow.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Granny Danger

[SGMilne]

There's a fair amount to digest with the interview.

First though, fair play for someone at United going out and talking to the local press rather than the softball in-house media stuff we've seen for the last few years. This isn't just a United problem, loads of clubs now only talk to their own in-house media or a preferred journalist who would never run anything bad so he could always get the transfer gossip first...

I've seen fans on social media complain about the in-house media stuff over the last few seasons, so how typical is it that the moment they do an interview with the Courier, some of those same people then complain about that, and demand that they should be able to read it for free. Why? 10 years ago you wouldn't think twice about buying a newspaper. At what point did things stop having any sort of value? I get that some of the information - as it directly concerned season ticket transactions - should have been put on the website first, but apart from that, the content is fair game and DCT have to pay the wages of Alan Temple and everyone else involved in putting it together.

As for the content, well people are entitled to have their viewpoint and if they want to take the rebate or not is up to them. Personally, I don't see any problem with the club appealing to people not to take it. They are a business and they have to look at cash flow. If supporters don't take the option then it improves cash flow and will result in more money available to be spent on other things. Less money = less signings, cutbacks, redundancies etc. It is the way of the world.

The one thing I absolutely don't get is the entitlement some have - and I don't think that really applies to anyone who posts here - regarding how money should be spent at the club. A whole generation of United fans has been brought up to believe the club should run at a significant loss because there will always be a chairman out there who will make up the shortfall by spending his own money. It has happened since the mid-late 90s, so therefore it should always happen. Yes, United fans are incredibly loyal, we turn out in numbers, we buy merchandise, and we support the club through thick and thin, but to be fair, so do the supporters of almost every other club in the land. What we don't do is invest enough to sustain the amount we spend, because for the last 30 or so years we've had a chairman willing to spunk his cash away. And what that's led to is a massive level of entitlement, where two points are made by a lot of people...

Point 1: "Why should we as fans pay for the club to be run as we would like it?" Maybe because we're the customers and are the primary point of cash flow without the TV income and bigger travelling support of the Premiership? Without customers, there is no United (and I fully agree with the idea then that the customers should be listened to and consulted more. It shouldn't be the closed shop under Asghar, but neither should it be the leaky ship helmed by Derek Robertson where anyone would be told anything) so we do need to accept that cash flow is dependent upon us putting our hands in our pockets first and foremost.

Point 2: "Ogren is responsible for all of this. He needs to sell up and go". I get it; United has been poorly run over the last 2 or 3 years, specifically because of recruitment. If we'd made two or three different signings last season we'd have stayed up and none of this would be a problem. But surely nobody could fault Ogren for putting his hand in his pocket? He's spent a ridiculous amount of money on a team he'd probably never heard of 6 or 7 years ago and that helped us get promoted and get into Europe. Why can't he say "Enough is enough, the club has to be able to wash its own face". And why now, just because some people don't like him anymore, should he sell up? And if he's going to sell up, are people just expecting him to walk away for nothing or for a huge loss, just because we as fans want someone else to throw away their own personal fortune for our benefit? I know a few wealthy United fans who have made their wealth through being good business people; none of them would be willing to buy the club, because they've told me directly that all they'd get for throwing their hard-earned cash away is abuse the moment anything goes wrong.

I don't think that's a United problem, it's a football fan problem. We just think paying the tab is someone else's responsibility and the moment one person stops, then the next sucker on the imaginary Sugar Daddy conveyor belt will replace them.

 

[wardy83]

Akinyemi from Ayr about to sign for York City

[invergowrie arab]

I don't see any Utd fan anywhere saying they shouldn't put their hand in their pocket.

I don't have a problem with putting my hand in my pocket for my football club.

Happy to buy season tickets, replica gear, hospitality, tickets for dinners, 50/50s etc 

I do have a problem with putting my hand in my pocket to sustain a private investment when I'm being asked to make a donation ie something for nothing.

Including the DUSF donations this is about the 5th time fans have been asked to make sacrifices in the Ogren ownership era. Some of it was unforseen - Covid - and some was piss poor management. 

I would go as far to suggest that it should illegal to use community assets like clubs to make private profit and clubs should be registered as social enterprises. When that happens I'd happily donate money for nothing to support a community asset which brings economic and social benefits to the city.

It's a complete false dichotomy to say we donate to the club or we expect a sugar daddy to suck up losses year on year.

If the 6th biggest supported club in Scotland can't be run sustainably then the whole game is fucked and an implosion and reset would be no bad thing.

[Steven W]

35 minutes ago, wardy83 said:

Akinyemi from Ayr about to sign for York City

Disappointing. In the lack of any other obvious candidate, I assume we were in for him, but he was apparently keen to head back down South - so that maybe scuppered things. Or we may have been outbid in transfer fee or wages. Or both.

Jakubiak is a worrying thought, but presumably becoming a possibilty.

[Tannadeechee]

36 minutes ago, SGMilne said:

There's a fair amount to digest with the interview.

First though, fair play for someone at United going out and talking to the local press rather than the softball in-house media stuff we've seen for the last few years. This isn't just a United problem, loads of clubs now only talk to their own in-house media or a preferred journalist who would never run anything bad so he could always get the transfer gossip first...

I've seen fans on social media complain about the in-house media stuff over the last few seasons, so how typical is it that the moment they do an interview with the Courier, some of those same people then complain about that, and demand that they should be able to read it for free. Why? 10 years ago you wouldn't think twice about buying a newspaper. At what point did things stop having any sort of value? I get that some of the information - as it directly concerned season ticket transactions - should have been put on the website first, but apart from that, the content is fair game and DCT have to pay the wages of Alan Temple and everyone else involved in putting it together.

As for the content, well people are entitled to have their viewpoint and if they want to take the rebate or not is up to them. Personally, I don't see any problem with the club appealing to people not to take it. They are a business and they have to look at cash flow. If supporters don't take the option then it improves cash flow and will result in more money available to be spent on other things. Less money = less signings, cutbacks, redundancies etc. It is the way of the world.

The one thing I absolutely don't get is the entitlement some have - and I don't think that really applies to anyone who posts here - regarding how money should be spent at the club. A whole generation of United fans has been brought up to believe the club should run at a significant loss because there will always be a chairman out there who will make up the shortfall by spending his own money. It has happened since the mid-late 90s, so therefore it should always happen. Yes, United fans are incredibly loyal, we turn out in numbers, we buy merchandise, and we support the club through thick and thin, but to be fair, so do the supporters of almost every other club in the land. What we don't do is invest enough to sustain the amount we spend, because for the last 30 or so years we've had a chairman willing to spunk his cash away. And what that's led to is a massive level of entitlement, where two points are made by a lot of people...

Point 1: "Why should we as fans pay for the club to be run as we would like it?" Maybe because we're the customers and are the primary point of cash flow without the TV income and bigger travelling support of the Premiership? Without customers, there is no United (and I fully agree with the idea then that the customers should be listened to and consulted more. It shouldn't be the closed shop under Asghar, but neither should it be the leaky ship helmed by Derek Robertson where anyone would be told anything) so we do need to accept that cash flow is dependent upon us putting our hands in our pockets first and foremost.

Point 2: "Ogren is responsible for all of this. He needs to sell up and go". I get it; United has been poorly run over the last 2 or 3 years, specifically because of recruitment. If we'd made two or three different signings last season we'd have stayed up and none of this would be a problem. But surely nobody could fault Ogren for putting his hand in his pocket? He's spent a ridiculous amount of money on a team he'd probably never heard of 6 or 7 years ago and that helped us get promoted and get into Europe. Why can't he say "Enough is enough, the club has to be able to wash its own face". And why now, just because some people don't like him anymore, should he sell up? And if he's going to sell up, are people just expecting him to walk away for nothing or for a huge loss, just because we as fans want someone else to throw away their own personal fortune for our benefit? I know a few wealthy United fans who have made their wealth through being good business people; none of them would be willing to buy the club, because they've told me directly that all they'd get for throwing their hard-earned cash away is abuse the moment anything goes wrong.

I don't think that's a United problem, it's a football fan problem. We just think paying the tab is someone else's responsibility and the moment one person stops, then the next sucker on the imaginary Sugar Daddy conveyor belt will replace them.

 

I am really sorry but for me and the comments I've seen this is spectacularly missing the point, much like a McNulty shot at goal. 

I subscribe to the Courier so no issue for me and yes there are vast swathes of entitlement in society where folk believe they should get everything for free but this is not what I am seeing here. 

The complaints here are that United set ST prices at Premiership level and said "we'll give you a 10% rebate to use in the shop". This was on top last season's rises. Without this many folk may simply have not bought/renewed at the advertised prices  which are by far and away the highest in the Championship.

There has then been no mention of the rebate again until a couple days ago, where a United Webpage mentioned 48 hours until news of rebate etc.

The cux.of the matter is the FIRST anyone hears of the details of the rebate is in a Courier interview with Luigi Capuano where he hopes fans won't take it and compares It with COVID which was completely out of the clubs control and had no money at all coming in. THIS part should have been via club website or an email to every ST purchaser, the club have all our email addresses and would have cost the club zero. It is common courtesy, not to give this out first via a (quite correctly) paywalled news website and not tonuse the emotional blackmail, no matter how correct in said interview.

This is a completely separate issue to the quality of the in house media, or Luigi Capuano giving an interview.

The rest of the interview is fine,.no issues at all. In fact a lot of it is welcome, an admission of failure from the club amongst other things. The interview is to be commended, allowing an outside journalist to ask the questions, it is the, what feels like, underhand, pre official announcement of the rebate "please let us keep the money" request contained within.

[Pull My Strings]

58 minutes ago, SGMilne said:

There's a fair amount to digest with the interview.

First though, fair play for someone at United going out and talking to the local press rather than the softball in-house media stuff we've seen for the last few years. This isn't just a United problem, loads of clubs now only talk to their own in-house media or a preferred journalist who would never run anything bad so he could always get the transfer gossip first...

I've seen fans on social media complain about the in-house media stuff over the last few seasons, so how typical is it that the moment they do an interview with the Courier, some of those same people then complain about that, and demand that they should be able to read it for free. Why? 10 years ago you wouldn't think twice about buying a newspaper. At what point did things stop having any sort of value? I get that some of the information - as it directly concerned season ticket transactions - should have been put on the website first, but apart from that, the content is fair game and DCT have to pay the wages of Alan Temple and everyone else involved in putting it together.

As for the content, well people are entitled to have their viewpoint and if they want to take the rebate or not is up to them. Personally, I don't see any problem with the club appealing to people not to take it. They are a business and they have to look at cash flow. If supporters don't take the option then it improves cash flow and will result in more money available to be spent on other things. Less money = less signings, cutbacks, redundancies etc. It is the way of the world.

The one thing I absolutely don't get is the entitlement some have - and I don't think that really applies to anyone who posts here - regarding how money should be spent at the club. A whole generation of United fans has been brought up to believe the club should run at a significant loss because there will always be a chairman out there who will make up the shortfall by spending his own money. It has happened since the mid-late 90s, so therefore it should always happen. Yes, United fans are incredibly loyal, we turn out in numbers, we buy merchandise, and we support the club through thick and thin, but to be fair, so do the supporters of almost every other club in the land. What we don't do is invest enough to sustain the amount we spend, because for the last 30 or so years we've had a chairman willing to spunk his cash away. And what that's led to is a massive level of entitlement, where two points are made by a lot of people...

Point 1: "Why should we as fans pay for the club to be run as we would like it?" Maybe because we're the customers and are the primary point of cash flow without the TV income and bigger travelling support of the Premiership? Without customers, there is no United (and I fully agree with the idea then that the customers should be listened to and consulted more. It shouldn't be the closed shop under Asghar, but neither should it be the leaky ship helmed by Derek Robertson where anyone would be told anything) so we do need to accept that cash flow is dependent upon us putting our hands in our pockets first and foremost.

Point 2: "Ogren is responsible for all of this. He needs to sell up and go". I get it; United has been poorly run over the last 2 or 3 years, specifically because of recruitment. If we'd made two or three different signings last season we'd have stayed up and none of this would be a problem. But surely nobody could fault Ogren for putting his hand in his pocket? He's spent a ridiculous amount of money on a team he'd probably never heard of 6 or 7 years ago and that helped us get promoted and get into Europe. Why can't he say "Enough is enough, the club has to be able to wash its own face". And why now, just because some people don't like him anymore, should he sell up? And if he's going to sell up, are people just expecting him to walk away for nothing or for a huge loss, just because we as fans want someone else to throw away their own personal fortune for our benefit? I know a few wealthy United fans who have made their wealth through being good business people; none of them would be willing to buy the club, because they've told me directly that all they'd get for throwing their hard-earned cash away is abuse the moment anything goes wrong.

I don't think that's a United problem, it's a football fan problem. We just think paying the tab is someone else's responsibility and the moment one person stops, then the next sucker on the imaginary Sugar Daddy conveyor belt will replace them.

 

I'm not sure that's a fair reflection of fan sentiment at all. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's a gross misrepresentation. I don't want the owner to be throwing money around all over the shop but neither do I want him complaining when he's spent that money badly. It's his money, it's his business. My preference, and that of the vast majority of the support I suspect, is for the club to be run in a competent, sustainable manner. 

[Tannadeechee]

9 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

I don't see any Utd fan anywhere saying they shouldn't put their hand in their pocket.

I don't have a problem with putting my hand in my pocket for my football club.

Happy to buy season tickets, replica gear, hospitality, tickets for dinners, 50/50s etc 

I do have a problem with putting my hand in my pocket to sustain a private investment when I'm being asked to make a donation ie something for nothing.

Including the DUSF donations this is about the 5th time fans have been asked to make sacrifices in the Ogren ownership era. Some of it was unforseen - Covid - and some was piss poor management. 

I would go as far to suggest that it should illegal to use community assets like clubs to make private profit and clubs should be registered as social enterprises. When that happens I'd happily donate money for nothing to support a community asset which brings economic and social benefits to the city.

It's a complete false dichotomy to say we donate to the club or we expect a sugar daddy to suck up losses year on year.

If the 6th biggest supported club in Scotland can't be run sustainably then the whole game is fucked and an implosion and reset would be no bad thing.

How the hell can St Johnstone win cups, stay in the Premiership and make a profit, Motherwell seem to be manageing OK too, yet we are up to our eyballs even with multi million pound transfer fees, we've been told record sponsorship deals over the last few season. We have greater resources, but they have been miss-used for years.

[Mark Connolly]

Paul Mathers is the new goalkeeping coach

https://www.dundeeunitedfc.co.uk/news/7919/BACKROOM-STAFF-UPDATE-.html

[Tannadeechee]

4 minutes ago, Mark Connolly said:

Paul Mathers is the new goalkeeping coach

https://www.dundeeunitedfc.co.uk/news/7919/BACKROOM-STAFF-UPDATE-.html

Looks a decent appointment to be fair. I see other backroom staff changes have been announced too in the performance & conditioning side of things.

[SGMilne]

5 minutes ago, Pull My Strings said:

I'm not sure that's a fair reflection of fan sentiment at all. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's a gross misrepresentation. I don't want the owner to be throwing money around all over the shop but neither do I want him complaining when he's spent that money badly. It's his money, it's his business. My preference, and that of the vast majority of the support I suspect, is for the club to be run in a competent, sustainable manner. 

II'll use your post as the one to quote but I'm replying to most of the responses...

I think the moment anyone says anything negative about fan attitude, the suggestion is that I'm tarring everyone with the same brush, and I'm not. As I said, "The one thing I absolutely don't get is the entitlement some have - and I don't think that really applies to anyone who posts here - regarding how money should be spent at the club" This is an absolutely fair reflection of some of the fan sentiment online.

Even this morning I've seen multiple tweets suggesting that Ogren is responsible and needs to sell now.

There are some fans who believe that its the owner's responsibility to bank roll a club and the moment things go wrong, they turn on him and want someone else, as if there's this conveyor belt.

Also, let's be perfectly honest, a significant number of fans won't have run a business and don't really get the concept of cash flow. And that is in no way to be taken as an insult, even though I'm sure it will, so they won't get that the club needs money coming in regularly and that if everyone took this rebate it would have an impact.

Tannadeechee is correct; other clubs are better run because they recruit better. That's all it comes down to. United have a long recent history of looking to sign marquee players ahead of the right players. It's happened time and again.

 

[Dundee Hibernian]

I don't want to be rude but idgaf about newspaper interviews and newspaper content.

The club should have communicated their information, in this case, directly to their customers. 

In answer to @SGMilne, it's over 20 years since I paid for a newspaper. After the disasters the club has inflicted on supporters over the last year, they shouldn't have gone first to the press with tales of woe to renege on a promise to customers over their overpriced product.

[Pull My Strings]

26 minutes ago, SGMilne said:

II'll use your post as the one to quote but I'm replying to most of the responses...

I think the moment anyone says anything negative about fan attitude, the suggestion is that I'm tarring everyone with the same brush, and I'm not. As I said, "The one thing I absolutely don't get is the entitlement some have - and I don't think that really applies to anyone who posts here - regarding how money should be spent at the club" This is an absolutely fair reflection of some of the fan sentiment online.

Even this morning I've seen multiple tweets suggesting that Ogren is responsible and needs to sell now.

There are some fans who believe that its the owner's responsibility to bank roll a club and the moment things go wrong, they turn on him and want someone else, as if there's this conveyor belt.

Also, let's be perfectly honest, a significant number of fans won't have run a business and don't really get the concept of cash flow. And that is in no way to be taken as an insult, even though I'm sure it will, so they won't get that the club needs money coming in regularly and that if everyone took this rebate it would have an impact.

Tannadeechee is correct; other clubs are better run because they recruit better. That's all it comes down to. United have a long recent history of looking to sign marquee players ahead of the right players. It's happened time and again.

 

It did rather sound like you were trying to characterise a majority view. If that's not the case then fair enough. You can find all sorts of deluded idiots on the internet if you look hard enough and no doubt some are United fans expressing the views you describe. They aren't substantial enough in numbers to be worth worrying about, in my opinion,  and I don't think they're really relevant to this discussion.

And I think "recruit better" is too pat. Overspending one minute and then cutting the squad to the core the next because you're panicking is not about recruitment. Neither is pretending to scour the globe for a coach and alighting on the guy already in the building, twice. Falling out with successive managers so they have to be replaced every summer isn't about recruitment. Leaving a broken model running long after it was shown to be dysfunctional isn't about recruitment. 

[mishtergrolsch]

1 hour ago, Tannadeechee said:

I am really sorry but for me and the comments I've seen this is spectacularly missing the point, much like a McNulty shot at goal. 

Or a Billy McKay one on one?

[SGMilne]

Just now, Pull My Strings said:

It did rather sound like you were trying to characterise a majority view. If that's not the case then fair enough. You can find all sorts of deluded idiots on the internet if you look hard enough and no doubt some are United fans expressing the views you describe. They aren't substantial enough in numbers to be worth worrying about, in my opinion,  and I don't think they're really relevant to this discussion.

And I think "recruit better" is too pat. Overspending one minute and then cutting the squad to the core the next because you're panicking is not about recruitment. Neither is pretending to scour the globe for a coach and alighting on the guy already in the building, twice. Falling out with successive managers so they have to be replaced every summer isn't about recruitment. Leaving a broken model running long after it was shown to be dysfunctional isn't about recruitment. 

It kinda is though. If you overspend and achieve then there's no problem. If you overspend on spectacularly bad recruitment then you have to make it up later.

Last season Ogren put a lot of money in and in the case of McGrath especially, pushed the boat out for little return. None of this would be talked about if the players we spent money on did well.

Same with managers. They recruited managers poorly.

FWIW I don't think we've cut the squad to the core either; we've got plenty of options - a lot of them young tbf - and the one area where we're especially light we're now looking to bolster.

[Pens_Dark]

39 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

I don't want to be rude but idgaf about newspaper interviews and newspaper content.

The club should have communicated their information, in this case, directly to their customers. 

In answer to @SGMilne, it's over 20 years since I paid for a newspaper. After the disasters the club has inflicted on supporters over the last year, they shouldn't have gone first to the press with tales of woe to renege on a promise to customers over their overpriced product.

I would guess that within the conditions of this rebate it might state that if the ST holder doesn't claim it then the club will automatically keep the rebate. 

If that was the case the cynic in me thinks that the club have deliberately communicated this via a paywall news article to help curtail as many people coming to claim as possible. Maybe a bit far-fetched and word gets around anyway but would anything really surprise Utd fans given the past year or so?