Injuries

[Butters Scotch]

3 minutes ago, SlayerX said:

Check Manchester United's previous three matches.

United have played with two up top (both no 9s), Bruno and McTominay.

Three wins plus it completely nullified Manchester City in the FA Cup final.

I don't even know what "EA Sporte FC talk" is". I grew out of consoles with the Mega Drive and Snes.

Pouring scorn on a progressive system is pure Scottish football.

I remember Ian Cathro being mocked and chased out of Scottish football for having a *gasp* laptop on the bench by football neanderthals like Kris Boyd.

Meanwhile, the analytics of the likes of Manchester City is like NASA. (Strangely, Boyd doesn't use the same incredulous language when he's sat in his comfy Soccer Saturday seat).

And Angelo Alessio being driven out of Kilmarnock as his training was "boring". Aye, right, it's good enough for amateurs like Pirlo, Pogba, etc, but not good enough for superstars like Kirk Broadfoot, etc.

There's a reason why Scottish football is in the dark ages. It's partly the fans, the players and the media.

"False 9?!? That's witchcraft!! It's 4-4-2 and long balls or get out of our village!" (With the slight tone o

You really do haver a lot of pish in your rants

[Chripper]

1 minute ago, Billy Jean King said:

Lewis Morgan never gets a mention, banging in goals at MLS level whatever that actually is.

Morgan and Gauld should have both had a chance to be in a squad long ago.

It's obvious that, for whatever reason, Steve Clarke doesn't rate them.

It's not about the distance, either. Jack Hendry isn't exactly playing over the border.

And a while ago Gauld was in the conversation for the team of the season in the top flight in Portugal, for a relegated team.

Still didn't get a sniff.

[2426255]

This thread's getting deleted if you all don't behave yourselves. 

[true fan]

2 hours ago, Kevin Finnerty said:

Why does he look "indecisive"? He said at the start of this camp that he planned to use the under-21 squad as a reserve pool in case of further injuries and from his comments yesterday it sounds like he's planning to make the call on either replacing Dykes or keeping the squad as-is within a day or two of coming back home from Gibraltar. Seems straightforward enough to me.

Close to the tournament he is going to spend a few days working out if he wants a 3rd centre forward or not.

this may or may not come from the u21s

decisive? Are we being managed by Hamlet, prince of Denmark?

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

1 hour ago, SlayerX said:

Check Manchester United's previous three matches.

United have played with two up top (both no 9s), Bruno and McTominay.

Three wins plus it completely nullified Manchester City in the FA Cup final.

I don't even know what "EA Sporte FC talk" is". I grew out of consoles with the Mega Drive and Snes.

Pouring scorn on a progressive system is pure Scottish football.

I remember Ian Cathro being mocked and chased out of Scottish football for having a *gasp* laptop on the bench by football neanderthals like Kris Boyd.

Meanwhile, the analytics of the likes of Manchester City is like NASA. (Strangely, Boyd doesn't use the same incredulous language when he's sat in his comfy Soccer Saturday seat).

And Angelo Alessio being driven out of Kilmarnock as his training was "boring". Aye, right, it's good enough for amateurs like Pirlo, Pogba, etc, but not good enough for superstars like Kirk Broadfoot, etc.

There's a reason why Scottish football is in the dark ages. It's partly the fans, the players and the media.

"False 9?!? That's witchcraft!! It's 4-4-2 and long balls or get out of our village!" (With the slight tone of "Deliverance" in the background)

You've got this completely wrong.  The issue against the F9 claims isn't a rejection of progress, it's the irritation in response to fans making claims for novel solutions and concepts they don't understand.  Just because Barcelona and Man City have used it, and Guardiola is the tinkerer's wet dream, doesn't mean it can be used effectively by a team not used to using it, and players entirely unsuited for it.

I agree that Scottish football is often backwards - but the reverse is also true.  Many people also see anything foreign or unusual as being exciting or effective - 'ooooh shiny - we need to do more like that'.  The truth is likely somewhere between the two.

The rest of your post is just a straw-man argument in response to points not made.

McTominay didn't play a F9 position.  A F9 isn't simply a striker playing deep, or a midfielders playing forward.  It's a #9 (a position McTominay has never played) playing a #9 role, but often coming deep when in possession - that gives the centre halves a dilemma as to whether to leave the striker to take the ball unchallenged, or follow the movement and leave space in behind for the wingers or runners from deep.

It was famously successful by Messi doing it for years; but also used successfully by Spain (attackers like Silva); France (Griezman); Man City (Gundogan / Ferran Torres); Firmino (Liverpool) etc.  To work well, you need an attacker who can play as a striker (they act as a #9 out of possession), but also a very technical capable midfielder who is highly mobile (operating often like a #10 in possession).  Most importantly, it needs wingers or attacking midfielders to play off it and use the space created.

The player most likely to benefit from a real F9 would be McTominay himself.  It's being lamented as a silly idea - because we have no real suitable players for it, our players have never played it, and it actually uses our best players in less effective positions.

It's back to the argument and logical fallacy "McTominay can score goals from midfield so he must make a great striker".  

Edited June 3 by HuttonDressedAsLahm

[CM.]

26 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

It was famously successful by Messi doing it for years; but also used successfully by Spain (attackers like Silva); France (Griezman); Man City (Gundogan / Ferran Torres); Firmino (Liverpool) etc.  To work well, you need an attacker who can play as a striker (they act as a #9 out of possession), but also a very technical capable midfielder who is highly mobile (operating often like a #10 in possession).  Most importantly, it needs wingers or attacking midfielders to play off it and use the space created.

Also worth pointing out that the common denominator there is a 433/4231 formation. Has any side successfully utilised a F9 in a formation with no wingers? Seems a pointless thing to even discuss when we would need to change formation to even try and implement it.

Edited June 3 by CM.

[Chripper]

39 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

McTominay didn't play a F9 position.  A F9 isn't simply a striker playing deep, or a midfielders playing forward.  It's a #9 (a position McTominay has never played) playing a #9 role, but often coming deep when in possession - that gives the centre halves a dilemma as to whether to leave the striker to take the ball unchallenged, or follow the movement and leave space in behind for the wingers or runners from deep.

It was famously successful by Messi doing it for years; but also used successfully by Spain (attackers like Silva); France (Griezman); Man City (Gundogan / Ferran Torres); Firmino (Liverpool) etc.  To work well, you need an attacker who can play as a striker (they act as a #9 out of possession), but also a very technical capable midfielder who is highly mobile (operating often like a #10 in possession).  Most importantly, it needs wingers or attacking midfielders to play off it and use the space created.

The player most likely to benefit from a real F9 would be McTominay himself.  It's being lamented as a silly idea - because we have no real suitable players for it, our players have never played it, and it actually uses our best players in less effective positions.

It's back to the argument and logical fallacy "McTominay can score goals from midfield so he must make a great striker".  

Yes, I know exactly what a false no 9 is, thanks for the 101.

It actually predates the Messi and Barcelona years. People claim that Hungary first trailblazer the system in the 1950s. Including the Hungary team that mauled England

Some say Corinthians in the 1890s.

It was really first used in modern times when Johan Cruyff came to Barcelona and altered their entire football and cultural landscape.

Cruyff used Michael Laudrup in the false 9 position. They actually tried to buy Brian Laudrup a few months into his Rangers contract, to replace Michael who had just joined Real Madrid, and play him in the same position.

A false 9 helps with the counter press, adding another body in central midfield areas in order to force a turnover and overload the midfield.

It's that kind of attitude that's holding back Scottish football. "X isn't as technically gifted as Messi so let's just lump the ball up at him"

McKenna isn't as good a defender as Baresi. Should we just retire McKenna? Gilmour isn't as good as being a deep lying playmaker as Pirlo. Get rid.

Alex Rae said a few months ago that he was sick if seeing youth coaches telling players to play from the back and to play possession football. In his words, "if they can't do it, they shouldn't be taught to". No wonder Rangers are a shambles.

Yeah, Scott McTominay isn't the most technically gifted player. He's not even Scotland's most technically gifted player. So what?

All the more reason to play him as further up the park as popossible. He sure as hell isn't an anchorman or a deep playing lying playmaker, positions where he's played at United till he was 25 years old.

Harry Kane plays that way for England, but that's more out of frustration than design. If he doesn't come deep and conduct play, he won't get the ball. He's their best passer.

Edited June 3 by SlayerX

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

11 minutes ago, SlayerX said:

Yes, I know exactly what a no 9 is, thanks for the 101.

It actually predates the Messi and Barcelona years. People claim that Hungary first trailblazer the system in the 1950s. Including the Hungary team that mauled England

Some say Corinthians in the 1890s.

It was really first used in modern times when Johan Cruyff came to Barcelona and altered their entire football and cultural landscape.

Cruyff used Michael Laudrup in the false 9 position. They actually tried to buy Brian Laudrup a few months into his Rangers contract, to replace Michael who had just joined Real Madrid, and play him in the same position.

A no 9 helps with the counter press, adding another body in central midfield areas in order to force a turnover and overload the midfield.

It's that kind of attitude that's holding back Scottish football. "X isn't as technically gifted as Messi so let's just lump the ball up at him"

McKenna isn't as good a defender as Baresi. Should we just retire McKenna? Gilmour isn't as good as being a deep lying playmaker as Pirlo. Get rid.

Alex Rae said a few months ago that he was sick if seeing youth coaches telling players to play from the back and to play possession football. In his words, "if they can't do it, they shouldn't be taught to". No wonder Rangers are a shambles.

Yeah, Scott McTominay isn't the most technically gifted player. He's not even Scotland's most technically gifted player. So what?

All the more reason to play him as further up the park as popossible. He sure as hell isn't an anchorman or a deep playing lying playmaker, positions where he's played at United till he was 25 years old.

With the obvious danger of dragging this nonsense on further, I'll bite.

Quote

Yeah, Scott McTominay isn't the most technically gifted player. He's not even Scotland's most technically gifted player. So what?

The entire point I was making is that it makes no sense to play a new formation, at short notice with players that don't know it, don't suit it, and plays against our strengths as a team, and with the players we have.  It doesn't play to McTominay's strengths at all.  

Quote

All the more reason to play him as further up the park as popossible. He sure as hell isn't an anchorman or a deep playing lying playmaker, positions where he's played at United till he was 25 years old.

No - absolutely not.  It's the complete reverse.  Using this logic to its natural extension - why not play Blanc, Hierro, Sergio Ramos, or Koeman up front?

Your point re Baresi and McKenna is comical nonsense.  "We don't have the players to suit a particular style of football" is not the same as "well, let's all just give up then".  I'm not sure what debate you're imagining, but you're the only one having it.

I've absolutely no interest in what Alex Rae said or didn't say.  Having dinosaurs in Scottish football is neither an enlightened observation nor would it be a particularly surprising revelation to the unaware.  It seems obvious, but apparently needs said - not playing a F9 isn't a rejection of progressive football ideas, it's a pragmatic and entirely sensible decision because there is basically zero obvious benefit to Scotland.

This whole discussion is almost the perfect definition of academic.

 

Edited June 3 by HuttonDressedAsLahm

[Chripper]

14 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

The entire point I was making is that it makes no sense to play a new formation, at short notice with players that don't know it, don't suit it, and plays against our strengths as a team, and with the players we have.  It doesn't play to McTominay's strengths at all.  

It isn't a new formation. We already play 3-4-2-1. It would be the exact same formation but the 9 would be a false 9.

Without doubt I've seen more of McTominay than you have. Is he the incarnation of Michael Laudrup? No. We don't need a Messi to beat Switzerland, Gibraltar, etc.

14 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

No - absolutely not.  It's the complete reverse.  Using this logic to its natural extension - why not play Blanc, Hierro, Sergio Ramos, Koeman up front?

Your point re Baresi and McKenna is comical nonsense.  "We don't have the players to suit a particular style of football" is not the same as "well, let's all just give up then".  I'm not sure what debate you're imagining, but you're the only one having it.

I've absolutely no interest in what Alex Rae said or didn't say.  Having dinosaurs in Scottish football is neither an enlightened observation nor would it be particularly surprising revelation to the unaware.  It seems obvious, but apparently needs said - not playing a F9 isn't a rejection of progressive football ideas, it's a pragmatic and entirely sensible decision because there is basically zero obvious benefit to Scotland.

This whole discussion is almost the perfect definition of academic.

No offense, but you come off as one of the football dinosaurs that you've just cited.

"We've never tried it before, so let's not try it".

Brilliant innovation.

In transition Guardiola plays 2-2-3-3 God knows how you'd react if I called for that system a few years ago. You'd probably grab for the torches and pitchforks.

It takes all their energy for some fans to get their head around a back three.

You claimed that a player needs to have the skills etc of Messi to pull off the false 9 role. I'm not going to be as abusive as you and call it "nonsense", but it's absolutely what I'm thinking.

If you deem this topic as "nonsense" then I'll end it right here. No point wasting my time further.

Namaste.

Edited June 3 by SlayerX

[Butters Scotch]

47 minutes ago, SlayerX said:

It isn't a new formation. We already play 3-4-2-1. It would be the exact same formation but the 9 would be a false 9.

Without doubt I've seen more of McTominay than you have. Is he the incarnation of Michael Laudrup? No. We don't need a Messi to beat Switzerland, Gibraltar, etc.

No offense, but you come off as one of the football dinosaurs that you've just cited.

"We've never tried it before, so let's not try it".

Brilliant innovation.

In transition Guardiola plays 2-2-3-3 God knows how you'd react if I called for that system a few years ago. You'd probably grab for the torches and pitchforks.

It takes all their energy for some fans to get their head around a back three.

You claimed that a player needs to have the skills etc of Messi to pull off the false 9 role. I'm not going to be as abusive as you and call it "nonsense", but it's absolutely what I'm thinking.

If you deem this topic as "nonsense" then I'll end it right here. No point wasting my time further.

Namaste.

 

[Chripper]

Yeah.

Sky Sports News have just confirmed than Ben Doak trained away from the main group. Trying to run off an injury.

[Insert Amusing Pseudonym]

2 hours ago, SlayerX said:

Yes, I know exactly what a false no 9 is, thanks for the 101.

It actually predates the Messi and Barcelona years. People claim that Hungary first trailblazer the system in the 1950s. Including the Hungary team that mauled England

Some say Corinthians in the 1890s.

It was really first used in modern times when Johan Cruyff came to Barcelona and altered their entire football and cultural landscape.

Cruyff used Michael Laudrup in the false 9 position. They actually tried to buy Brian Laudrup a few months into his Rangers contract, to replace Michael who had just joined Real Madrid, and play him in the same position.

A false 9 helps with the counter press, adding another body in central midfield areas in order to force a turnover and overload the midfield.

It's that kind of attitude that's holding back Scottish football. "X isn't as technically gifted as Messi so let's just lump the ball up at him"

McKenna isn't as good a defender as Baresi. Should we just retire McKenna? Gilmour isn't as good as being a deep lying playmaker as Pirlo. Get rid.

Alex Rae said a few months ago that he was sick if seeing youth coaches telling players to play from the back and to play possession football. In his words, "if they can't do it, they shouldn't be taught to". No wonder Rangers are a shambles.

Yeah, Scott McTominay isn't the most technically gifted player. He's not even Scotland's most technically gifted player. So what?

All the more reason to play him as further up the park as popossible. He sure as hell isn't an anchorman or a deep playing lying playmaker, positions where he's played at United till he was 25 years old.

Harry Kane plays that way for England, but that's more out of frustration than design. If he doesn't come deep and conduct play, he won't get the ball. He's their best passer.

There's a lot of nonsense in here, but claiming Cruyff played with a false 9 at Barcelona  is utter drivel.   His first few years there he had Salinas, an out and out target man playing nearly every week, while shunting Lineker out wide right. 

Then he bought Stoichkov and Romario and played with 3 up in pretty much every game

[Butters Scotch]

12 minutes ago, Insert Amusing Pseudonym said:

There's a lot of nonsense in here, but claiming Cruyff played with a false 9 at Barcelona  is utter drivel.   His first few years there he had Salinas, an out and out target man playing nearly every week, while shunting Lineker out wide right. 

Then he bought Stoichkov and Romario and played with 3 up in pretty much every game

Out of all the rambling nonsense Oscar Wilde posted, he was correct regarding Michael Laudrop, he was played in a false 9 but not sure how many games he was in that position though 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

1 hour ago, SlayerX said:

It isn't a new formation. We already play 3-4-2-1. It would be the exact same formation but the 9 would be a false 9.

Without doubt I've seen more of McTominay than you have. Is he the incarnation of Michael Laudrup? No. We don't need a Messi to beat Switzerland, Gibraltar, etc.

No offense, but you come off as one of the football dinosaurs that you've just cited.

"We've never tried it before, so let's not try it".

Brilliant innovation.

In transition Guardiola plays 2-2-3-3 God knows how you'd react if I called for that system a few years ago. You'd probably grab for the torches and pitchforks.

It takes all their energy for some fans to get their head around a back three.

You claimed that a player needs to have the skills etc of Messi to pull off the false 9 role. I'm not going to be as abusive as you and call it "nonsense", but it's absolutely what I'm thinking.

If you deem this topic as "nonsense" then I'll end it right here. No point wasting my time further.

Namaste.

You keep using strawman arguments.  I very clearly didn't say they had to be Messi - I said they needed to be 'technically capable, and very mobile'. The F9 players, whether that's Cruyff or Firmino are always technically outstanding.  They're implemented by coaches with time and where it suits the resources they have.  

If Gilmour was an attacking and goalscoring midfielder, he might be an option.  But we don't have an obvious candidate, we're two weeks out from our biggest game in decades, we have injuries everywhere and we simply don't have the wingers to take advantage of it.

2-2-3-3 is just putting arbitrary numbers to football formations that have always been fluid.  Calling it by a collection of numbers that sounds like it belongs to a 19th Century steam train just makes the proponent look pretentious.  At corners, most teams end up 2-2-6 or 2-0-8.  Is that something new?  Absolutely not.  Written down by Jonathan Wilson and the formation-files are fawning over themselves.

I'm all for modernisation of football, but change for the sake of change and jumping at novelty is what stops change taking effect, it doesn't make it happen quicker.

[Chripper]

Ben Doak appears to be carrying another injury as he trained away from the main squad.

With Scotland's luck he'll be broken before he even begins his career.

Edited June 3 by SlayerX

[Savage Henry]

Jesus suffering Christ.  This is as insane as the Caley Thistle thread over the weekend.  

[RandomGuy.]

[Scosha]

Has there been any chat of calling up someone else to replace Dykes? Surprised nothing has been announced by now. 

[Gordopolis]

Jack injured in the Gibraltar game

Drowned during a water break

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, Scosha said:

Has there been any chat of calling up someone else to replace Dykes? Surprised nothing has been announced by now. 

Clarke said yesterday he would think about it over the next couple of days. I would guess what we saw tonight (plus a possible injury for Cooper) makes it more likely he does bring one in.