Who’s on the plane?

[2426255]

Shankland's a good player. On balance, too good for the Scottish Premiership - I don't think that's unfair to say, but it's hard to know how he would do if he swapped places with Kevin Nisbet in the Championship or Jacob Brown in the Premier League. I think not moving in January was the safe option, that's not a criticism of him. 

If he had taken a risk: moved and continued to do well he'd have a stronger claim. As it is he still has a strong claim, but he's missed an opportunity to strengthen his hand. It may also leave him exposed if Brown or Nisbet finish their own seasons (at a higher level) strongly. There may have been other factors unrelated to Euro's selection that played a part in him staying with Hearts that weren't in his control.

Just a wee one, but I noticed when looking at the 23-man matchday squads for the last 2-year period (excluding friendlies) he tends to get selected when Che Adams isn't available which I found interesting. Possibly just a quirk and is only historical so not necessarily indicative of what will happen going forward.

Spoiler

[jack carter]

12 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

Shankenstein scoring again tonight in the league.

We tend to channel goalscoring opportunities for our midfielders, but as the Georgia away game showed, there can certainly be a need for a change of approach. Surely Shankland has to be in the squad with that in mind?

 

This is it.
We will likely be chasing at least one game late on, we need a Plan B that involves an actual scorer of goals, Shankland has done this in a recent competitive international. But it would be preferable if he was brought on a wee bit earlier than the 86th minute.

[DiegoDiego]

30 minutes ago, jack carter said:

This is it.
We will likely be chasing at least one game late on, we need a Plan B that involves an actual scorer of goals, 

We were chasing the game against Norway, brought on Kenny McLean and all was well in the world.

[GTG_03]

11 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Shankland's a good player. On balance, too good for the Scottish Premiership - I don't think that's unfair to say, but it's hard to know how he would do if he swapped places with Kevin Nisbet in the Championship or Jacob Brown in the Premier League. I think not moving in January was the safe option, that's not a criticism of him. 

 

If he had taken a risk: moved and continued to do well he'd have a stronger claim. As it is he still has a strong claim, but he's missed an opportunity to strengthen his hand. It may also leave him exposed if Brown or Nisbet finish their own seasons (at a higher level) strongly. There may have been other factors unrelated to Euro's selection that played a part in him staying with Hearts that weren't in his control.

Just a wee one, but I noticed when looking at the 23-man matchday squads for the last 2-year period (excluding friendlies) he tends to get selected when Che Adams isn't available which I found interesting. Possibly just a quirk and is only historical so not necessarily indicative of what will happen going forward.

  Hide contents

Too good for the Scottish premiership is a wild shout. I'd take him to the euros tho definitely, great to bring on with 20/25 left if we're needing a goal.

[Hendricks]

12 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Shankland's a good player. On balance, too good for the Scottish Premiership - I don't think that's unfair to say, but it's hard to know how he would do if he swapped places with Kevin Nisbet in the Championship or Jacob Brown in the Premier League. I think not moving in January was the safe option, that's not a criticism of him. 

If he had taken a risk: moved and continued to do well he'd have a stronger claim. As it is he still has a strong claim, but he's missed an opportunity to strengthen his hand. It may also leave him exposed if Brown or Nisbet finish their own seasons (at a higher level) strongly. There may have been other factors unrelated to Euro's selection that played a part in him staying with Hearts that weren't in his control.

Just a wee one, but I noticed when looking at the 23-man matchday squads for the last 2-year period (excluding friendlies) he tends to get selected when Che Adams isn't available which I found interesting. Possibly just a quirk and is only historical so not necessarily indicative of what will happen going forward.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Assuming Shankland is fit then Kevin Nisbet has absolutely no chance of being picked for the Euro's ahead of him. None. Not in the same league as a goalscorer.

 

Nisbet is also out long term making a piss poor season even worse......

 

 

Edited February 8 by Hendricks

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, GTG_03 said:

Too good for the Scottish premiership is a wild shout. I'd take him to the euros tho definitely, great to bring on with 20/25 left if we're needing a goal.

 

He's scored 41 goals in 62 Premiership games for Hearts, those are ridiculous figures which definitely point towards being too good for a level.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Hendricks said:

Assuming Shankland is fit then Kevin Nisbet has absolutely no chance of being picked for the Euro's ahead of him. None. Not in the same league as a goalscorer.

We wouldn't just be picking players based on their ability as goalscorers though, there is much more to it than that in terms of all round play. Shankland is definitely ahead of Nisbet for me right now, but the more interesting question is about someone like Brown who is clearly a very different type of player.

[lubo_blaha]

37 minutes ago, Hendricks said:

 

Assuming Shankland is fit then Kevin Nisbet has absolutely no chance of being picked for the Euro's ahead of him. None. Not in the same league as a goalscorer.

 

Nisbet is also out long term making a piss poor season even worse......

 

 

I wouldn’t say no chance at all. Nisbet had more caps and was brought to the last Euros. Clarke’s rated him higher than Shankland for most of his time in charge.

It’s only been this season that Shankland has really pulled ahead of him imo. Nisbet was out for much of last season but his minutes per goal was better than Shankland’s. 

[2426255]

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

Shankland is definitely ahead of Nisbet for me right now, but the more interesting question is about someone like Brown who is clearly a very different type of player.

If I were to guess, I'd say Jacob Brown is ahead of Lawrence Shankland at the moment for whatever reason that might be. The available historical selections point toward this based on the number of times Brown has been selected ahead of Shankland in the 23-man Matchday squads.

Spoiler

Recently, ahead of Georgia v Scotland, John Carver said the following about Shankland after Che Adams withdrew through injury.

Quote

He’s (Shankland) been on the fringes and done really well in previous squads. He was the next one on the list, so it’s good to see him here. I don’t think he’ll hold any grudges about not being called up originally.

John Carver

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/john-carver-scotlands-zander-clark-223000029.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEwDJiI50hkATl7qphXORLD5Z1_TtqTeQU-Eew_Np8nBMQ42-23K6hYKn3LV_tHHqXo1j4cF9Xg0MMsnMmZvtveOKjvb_T8jKt-xGjoHxKMupRFtHpWud9za-31Zn4d6guLTF2cN8zCBa6YmzsUhho2O42t8LFPQXyMO12qewskE

Given Jacob Brown was selected on the original announcement for the Nov-2023 camp then you could interpret that as Brown being ahead of Shankland on the list at that time and also that Shankland is ahead of Nisbet who wasn't involved. 

[Hendricks]

4 hours ago, 2426255 said:

If I were to guess, I'd say Jacob Brown is ahead of Lawrence Shankland at the moment for whatever reason that might be. The available historical selections point toward this based on the number of times Brown has been selected ahead of Shankland in the 23-man Matchday squads.

  Reveal hidden contents

Recently, ahead of Georgia v Scotland, John Carver said the following about Shankland after Che Adams withdrew through injury.

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/john-carver-scotlands-zander-clark-223000029.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEwDJiI50hkATl7qphXORLD5Z1_TtqTeQU-Eew_Np8nBMQ42-23K6hYKn3LV_tHHqXo1j4cF9Xg0MMsnMmZvtveOKjvb_T8jKt-xGjoHxKMupRFtHpWud9za-31Zn4d6guLTF2cN8zCBa6YmzsUhho2O42t8LFPQXyMO12qewskE

Given Jacob Brown was selected on the original announcement for the Nov-2023 camp then you could interpret that as Brown being ahead of Shankland on the list at that time and also that Shankland is ahead of Nisbet who wasn't involved. 

Absolutely no chance Brown is taken ahead of Shankland. Happy to wager whatever figure you want whether for charity or otherwise. In fact you can have any other striker out with Dykes and Adams that Shankland is in the 23.  The only caveat I have is injury. You are reading way too much into Brown getting the nod in a meaningless game. He doesn’t score goals and Clarke needs that up his sleeve. Shankland is having one of the best seasons in our domestic league of any non Old Firm striker in decades, not a chance he’s left out. None. 

[DC92]

4 hours ago, 2426255 said:

If I were to guess, I'd say Jacob Brown is ahead of Lawrence Shankland at the moment for whatever reason that might be. The available historical selections point toward this based on the number of times Brown has been selected ahead of Shankland in the 23-man Matchday squads.

  Reveal hidden contents

Recently, ahead of Georgia v Scotland, John Carver said the following about Shankland after Che Adams withdrew through injury.

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/john-carver-scotlands-zander-clark-223000029.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEwDJiI50hkATl7qphXORLD5Z1_TtqTeQU-Eew_Np8nBMQ42-23K6hYKn3LV_tHHqXo1j4cF9Xg0MMsnMmZvtveOKjvb_T8jKt-xGjoHxKMupRFtHpWud9za-31Zn4d6guLTF2cN8zCBa6YmzsUhho2O42t8LFPQXyMO12qewskE

Given Jacob Brown was selected on the original announcement for the Nov-2023 camp then you could interpret that as Brown being ahead of Shankland on the list at that time and also that Shankland is ahead of Nisbet who wasn't involved. 

There's a lot of water under the bridge since that squad was announced though:

- Shankland got a chance off the bench v Georgia and scored.

- Brown got a chance from the start v Norway and was very poor.

- Shankland has gone from 3 league goals to 17, most of them brilliant finishes and solo goals.  He's taken his game to another level this season, but that's mostly been evident since late October or thereabouts.

I certainly think Shankland is a better player than I did 3 months ago, while Brown (admittedly on limited evidence) probably went down in my estimation by following up a promising cameo v France with a poor showing v Norway. Clarke is very clamour-proof, so who knows, but I wouldn't be surprised if his opinions had also evolved since then.

I imagine both will get chances in the March friendlies.

[MarkoP]

Watched Shankland live in Saturday 

He ragdolled the Dundee defence all day, yes it’s a different level but he himself seemed on a different level to when I’ve seen him before.

He did the same last night for his goal against St Johnstone 

We literally can’t leave him out of our Euro squad

 

[Hendricks]

16 minutes ago, MarkoP said:

Watched Shankland live in Saturday 

He ragdolled the Dundee defence all day, yes it’s a different level but he himself seemed on a different level to when I’ve seen him before.

He did the same last night for his goal against St Johnstone 

We literally can’t leave him out of our Euro squad

 

In just the last 6 weeks or so he’s scored against Celtic at Parkhead (additionally Rangers at Ibrox earler in season as well as scoring against Zurich twice, in Georgia for Scotland and at Pittodrie), a tremendous last minute winner at Easter Road, a brilliant finish to secure victory over Aberdeen at Tynie, the winner on Saturday at Dens and last night in Perth and goals v Ross County and a double against St Mirren. It’s actually absurd. He’s scoring everywhere and often pivotal game winning goals. There is no way Steve Clarke leaves him out.  

Edited February 8 by Hendricks

[TheScarf]

Shankland will be in the squad.

[2426255]

I think you're coming from the point of view that Shankland 'should' be in the squad rather than looking at the reality of what Steve Clarke is likely to do or what he has done in the past even going back to Euro-2020. I think the evidence for him selecting Shankland ahead of Brown is quite light, but I'm not going to argue - if that's your view that's fine and we can see how it all plays out. 

I accept history isn't always a good way to predict the future. History would have predicted Kelly over Clark and Cooper over McKenna which isn't how it played out. It's not my personal preference to have Brown over Shankland, I just think as things stand right now it's Brown's to lose.

[Hendricks]

5 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

I think you're coming from the point of view that Shankland 'should' be in the squad rather than looking at the reality of what Steve Clarke is likely to do or what he has done in the past even going back to Euro-2020. I think the evidence for him selecting Shankland ahead of Brown is quite light, but I'm not going to argue - if that's your view that's fine and we can see how it all plays out. 

I accept history isn't always a good way to predict the future. History would have predicted Kelly over Clark and Cooper over McKenna which isn't how it played out. It's not my personal preference to have Brown over Shankland, I just think as things stand right now it's Brown's to lose.

It’s ludicrous to believe that Brown could possibly be ahead of Shankland right now. He isn’t even getting a game for Luton! Never mind contributing or God forbid scoring! Your evidence is incredibly flimsy but I will concede your point that Brown got a start ahead of Shankland last Autumn, which he deserved in the absence of the others and given he’d turned up for squads. He failed to impress though and has done diddly squat since whilst in comparison Shankland could barely have done more. There is just no conceivable way Shankland is left out for Brown given their value when there are others in the squad who can run about doing hee haw offensively, if required. Scotland’s best goalscorer in 2024 will be in the Euro squad this summer. 

[2426255]

27 minutes ago, Hendricks said:

It’s ludicrous to believe that Brown could possibly be ahead of Shankland right now. He isn’t even getting a game for Luton! Never mind contributing or God forbid scoring! Your evidence is incredibly flimsy but I will concede your point that Brown got a start ahead of Shankland last Autumn, which he deserved in the absence of the others and given he’d turned up for squads. He failed to impress though and has done diddly squat since whilst in comparison Shankland could barely have done more. There is just no conceivable way Shankland is left out for Brown given their value when there are others in the squad who can run about doing hee haw offensively, if required. Scotland’s best goalscorer in 2024 will be in the Euro squad this summer. 

That's fine, that's your opinion and as I said previously I'm not going to argue over it - besides it's conceivable both are selected if for example Che Adams picks up an injury or neither are selected if for example Harvey Barnes joins up.

There is a long time still to go until the squad is announced in May, the picture can and will change before then and then probably change again. So good luck with your prediction.

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, Hendricks said:

It’s ludicrous to believe that Brown could possibly be ahead of Shankland right now. He isn’t even getting a game for Luton! Never mind contributing or God forbid scoring! Your evidence is incredibly flimsy but I will concede your point that Brown got a start ahead of Shankland last Autumn, which he deserved in the absence of the others and given he’d turned up for squads. He failed to impress though and has done diddly squat since whilst in comparison Shankland could barely have done more. There is just no conceivable way Shankland is left out for Brown given their value when there are others in the squad who can run about doing hee haw offensively, if required. Scotland’s best goalscorer in 2024 will be in the Euro squad this summer. 

 

I'd personally give Shankland the nod, but it's not the nailed on certainty you seem to think it is, and Shankland scoring one goal in a game that wasn't exactly the most important of the campaign doesn't really change that.

Brown is just back from a short spell out injured, but has started 12 of Luton's 22 Premier League games this season and has come on as a sub in another 7. It's clearly a level miles above what Shankland is playing at, I doubt he'd have managed many that more than the two goals Brown has scored either. He's more likely to be playing against the sort of standard of player we'll face at the Euros, Brown is also a few years younger which could come into the manager's thoughts in terms of succession planning.

[DC92]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

I think you're coming from the point of view that Shankland 'should' be in the squad rather than looking at the reality of what Steve Clarke is likely to do or what he has done in the past even going back to Euro-2020. I think the evidence for him selecting Shankland ahead of Brown is quite light, but I'm not going to argue - if that's your view that's fine and we can see how it all plays out. 

I accept history isn't always a good way to predict the future. History would have predicted Kelly over Clark and Cooper over McKenna which isn't how it played out. It's not my personal preference to have Brown over Shankland, I just think as things stand right now it's Brown's to lose.

I'm not going to argue that the evidence Shankland will be favoured is light. I won't be astonished whatever Clarke picks.

However, the evidence that it's still Brown's to lose is also pretty light, given:

- Relative performances of two players in November;

- Shankland's exceptional form since then;

- Shankland was selected over Brown in September before losing his place in the next couple of squads after a poor run of form for Hearts. This suggests Clarke doesn't necessarily favour Brown for playing style reasons and will take form into account.

[Nesta]

Hello new member first post.

 

I still would probably have Brown ahead of Shankland and think Clarke may well too.

Shankland's form is excellent but the Scottish Premiership is a really awful level and not much of a barometer of anything. Plus, Brown's physical attributes are far better suited to Scotland who generally only play one up top. He also can play wide so offers more versatility.

Shankland's best chance is the fact that the times he might be used by Scotland would be when we were chasing a game late on and might want to go to two up front. So that would suit him better. Shankland, however, is best facing goal where our strikers generally need to be good with their back to goal and that suits Brown much better.

With only a 23 man squad Brown's physicality and versatility put him ahead of Shankland for me. Shankland scoring goals against St Johnstone and St Mirren doesn't change that.

[Hendricks]

Laughably inaccurate post by Nesta! Made me giggle though

 

Edited February 9 by Hendricks