Who’s on the plane?

[No_Problemo]

I would be amazed if both Dykes and Adams start a game together now given the quality of player we have in the roles in behind the striker. 

[DC92]

6 hours ago, Nesta said:

Shankland's form is impressive but he's really just a poor man's Kris Boyd

A poor man's Kris Boyd? He is a RICH man's Kris Boyd!

[2426255]

1 hour ago, Pie Of The Month said:

It's not something he's done in a while but there's been a couple of windows where one of the two hasn't been available. He started both against Ukraine in the playoff, away to Austria, at home to Israel and 2 of the 3 games at the last Euros so it's clearly something that's in Clarke's thoughts when it comes to a certain type of big game.

It could be tactical. We're playing opponents we've not played before. Clarke might see a reason to bring it back.

Fans assume playing two strikers is a more attacking setup, but it could be related to the shape of our press and overall defensive organisation.

[RandomGuy.]

Brown is better at defending from the front, running channels, and stretching the game.

Shankland is better at linking play, finishing chances, and being a proper focal point.

Can Shankland be as effective when we're countering and the support isn't close to him as hes been with Hearts?

Can Brown finish the 1/2 chances a sub for us might get over the 3 games?

Personally id choose Shankland as it stands. A goalscorer whos full of confidence coming off the bench is a big thing, and in whats effectively a 3 game tournament i think we'll need to be clinical. I think hes really under rated as an all round player aswell, he lacks pace but thats it and i think he'd link well with players getting around him.

Think we go 1 up front v Germany, so Adams and Dykes likely both play and 3rd choice doesnt. Reckon in one of the other games he goes 2 up front though, so a decision on whos selected might rest on what he thinks is better coming off the bench in those games.

[Insert Amusing Pseudonym]

On 11/02/2024 at 18:45, eez-eh said:

When did we last start them both though?

Every time we've started them both we've been route 1 shite.  The Ukraine playoff springs to mind.

Edit:  that's a bit unfair.  We were very good against England with them both.  Terrible against Croatia but we also beat Austria away and played well.

When they've both played and we've gone route 1 it's been dismal.

Edited February 13 by Insert Amusing Pseudonym

[No_Problemo]

29 minutes ago, Insert Amusing Pseudonym said:

Every time we've started them both we've been route 1 shite.  The Ukraine playoff springs to mind.

Edit:  that's a bit unfair.  We were very good against England with them both.  Terrible against Croatia but we also beat Austria away and played well.

When they've both played and we've gone route 1 it's been dismal.

When we have played them both before we also didn’t have the on form options we do now too. One of McGinn, McGregor, McTominay or Gilmour would need to drop out and I don’t see how it’s worth it in any way. 

Given we haven’t done it for a while, I can’t see it at all - it’s basically been two years!

Edited February 13 by No_Problemo

[2426255]

I don't really agree, it could be used. We are playing teams we haven't played against under Steve Clarke. It may suit us to use that strategy in those games as it's not just about Scotland or putting our best players on the pitch. Instead It's about getting the best team on the pitch for a specific game against opponents with unique strengths and weaknesses.

Definitely wouldn't rule it out just because we haven't used it in a while. It's a toolbox, sometimes the tool for the job isn't always the one that's most used. I said with the Jacob Brown discussion that historical evidence is useful, but only to a point, i.e. The point where it changes. Our tactical strategy won't stay the same indefinitely, it's based on our team and the opposition and context of the game. Sooner or later I think we'll see it again.

[Insert Amusing Pseudonym]

Listen, people are entitled to their opinions but anyone who would take Brown, who has been absolutely shite for Scotland, over Shankland needs to grow up.  

Shankland is playing unbelievably well atm.  Him not going would be a joke

[No_Problemo]

23 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

I don't really agree, it could be used. We are playing teams we haven't played against under Steve Clarke. It may suit us to use that strategy in those games as it's not just about Scotland or putting our best players on the pitch. Instead It's about getting the best team on the pitch for a specific game against opponents with unique strengths and weaknesses.

Definitely wouldn't rule it out just because we haven't used it in a while. It's a toolbox, sometimes the tool for the job isn't always the one that's most used. I said with the Jacob Brown discussion that historical evidence is useful, but only to a point, i.e. The point where it changes. Our tactical strategy won't stay the same indefinitely, it's based on our team and the opposition and context of the game. Sooner or later I think we'll see it again.

Of course it could be - the argument is around the likelihood of it.  

[DiegoDiego]

48 minutes ago, Insert Amusing Pseudonym said:

Listen,

^ angling for a job on Sportsound.

[Jacky1990]

With 10 mins to go, there isnt anyone we have I'd rather be coming off the bench to rescue a match than Shankland.

And he's done it for Scotland recently.

Get our best pure striker on the plane.

On the other hand, on form, get a crowdfund for a summer holiday for Liam Kelly so that the only plane hes on goes as far as feasibly possible from Germany.

[2426255]

1 hour ago, No_Problemo said:

Of course it could be - the argument is around the likelihood of it.  

The basis for your argument is historical and Scotland-centric. It isn't considering the opposition or the context of the game. Those are relevant factors when considering the likelihood of a tactical approach in my view.

That was the point I was making - Steve Clarke didn't start with 4 at the back for years, but then one day he did.

[ahemps]

2 hours ago, Jacky1990 said:

With 10 mins to go, there isnt anyone we have I'd rather be coming off the bench to rescue a match than Shankland.

And he's done it for Scotland recently.

Get our best pure striker on the plane.

On the other hand, on form, get a crowdfund for a summer holiday for Liam Kelly so that the only plane hes on goes as far as feasibly possible from Germany.

Kelly is probably 4th choice but in his favour is that Gordon and Clark might cancel the other one out. If only 1 of them plays between now and the summer then that might help Kelly. However it would be an extreme set of circumstances for a 3rd choice keeper to end up playing so I would still take whoever is 3rd best despite game time and I think that would rule Kelly out.

[JS_FFC]

4 hours ago, ahemps said:

Kelly is probably 4th choice but in his favour is that Gordon and Clark might cancel the other one out. If only 1 of them plays between now and the summer then that might help Kelly. However it would be an extreme set of circumstances for a 3rd choice keeper to end up playing so I would still take whoever is 3rd best despite game time and I think that would rule Kelly out.

I don’t think Clarke will necessarily rule out taking both Hearts keepers even if one of them is frozen out for the rest of the season. 
 

As you say it’s highly unlikely that the 3rd keeper will play (and fairly unlikely that the 2nd keeper will even play). 
 

I actually think even if Zander Clark is keeping Gordon out of the team for Hearts, I’d still probably expect Craig Gordon to start for Scotland if Gunn isn’t available. Clarke is fairly loyal to guys that have done well for him in the past and I kind of think the Hearts situation is largely a case of Clark not deserving to be dropped than him actually being the better of the two keepers. 

[2426255]

9 hours ago, Insert Amusing Pseudonym said:

Every time we've started them both we've been route 1 shite.  The Ukraine playoff springs to mind. Terrible against Croatia.

We were very good against England with them both. We also beat Austria away and played well.

Yer bog standard fan analysis: If we get a good result, then it means we played well and if we get a bad result we were shite. How about the Israel game where we got a last minute winner? or the 4-nil Faroe Islands game or the pre-Euro's 1-nil friendly win against Luxembourg?

[Skyline Drifter]

On 11/02/2024 at 18:38, JS_FFC said:

Assuming everyone is fit, this is what I think Clarke will do (not necessarily what I’d personally do)

Goalkeepers – Angus Gunn (Norwich), Craig Gordon (Hearts), Zander Clark (Hearts)

Defenders – Andy Robertson (Liverpool), Kieran Tierney (Real Sociedad), Jack Hendry (Al-Ettifaq), Aaron Hickey (Brentford), Grant Hanley (Norwich), Ryan Porteous (Watford), Nathan Patterson (Everton), Scott McKenna (Nottingham Forest)

Midfielders – Scott McTominay (Man Utd), Callum McGregor (Celtic), John McGinn (Aston Villa), Billy Gilmour (Brighton), Lewis Ferguson (Bologna), Kenny McLean (Norwich), Stuart Armstrong (Southampton), Ryan Jack (Rangers)

Strikers – Lyndon Dykes (QPR), Che Adams (Southampton), Ryan Christie (Bournemouth), Lawrence Shankland (Hearts)

Outside looking in – Cooper, Souttar, Brown, Taylor, Ralston, Doig, Kelly, McCrorie x2, Hyam, Johnston, Nisbet

I am assuming none of the Newcastle lads defect to Scotland, although I’d rate Barnes and Anderson as the two more likely to defect whereas I think Gordon and Livramento will want to keep their options open. Even still, Clarke is a pretty loyal guy so I think he will stick with the guys who got us to Germany, although we did see Che Adams play no part in Euro 2020 qualifying and he was at the main tournament (his first appearance in a Scotland shirt was in the March window before that tournament which was world cup qualifiers, so I guess we could technically see one or more of these guys in for the March friendlies. Barnes is the only one that has > 10% chance of defecting right now IMO.

This is still highly likely to be pretty much correct barring injury. Back in October there was a conversation to be had about Brown or Shankland (or even Nisbet). Since then Shankland's done everything he possibly could do elevate his position and Brown's done nothing (and Nisbet's barely played). As much as a couple of people have gone off the deep end here in opposite directions ( @Hendricks and @Nesta I'm looking at you here) I'd be very surprised if Shankland's not a mile ahead in the 3rd spot as it stands.

There's still a discussion to be had about goalkeeper and possibly about Ryan Jack v someone else (and I wouldn't list Christie as a striker) but that's your squad more or less.

On 11/02/2024 at 18:45, eez-eh said:

When did we last start them both though?

Like others I don't think he's going to start Dykes and Adams together again any time soon, particularly against stronger nations, but he's not actually had both available at the same time much lately.

On 10/02/2024 at 16:56, craigkillie said:

Shankland is a very good link player at Premiership level, obviously we don't really know how that translates at a higher level, but he's far more than just a poacher. His biggest issue is a lack of pace.

This. It's why the similarly talented Dobbie never quite made it in the English Premiership. He got promoted to it three times but managed barely double figures in appearances and got punted back down to the Championship every time. Plenty of talent but a yard of pace short. Shankland would likely be the same.

On 11/02/2024 at 10:57, MarkoP said:

Where does that leave Ryan Fraser who is admittedly now in the wildcard category but is having a good season with Southampton and who I’d personally trust more to add a dimension than Brown if we needed to tear it up a bit

Id like to see him and Shankland given a chance in March

I'm not seeing Fraser getting a chance barring several injuries. There's obviously a frosty relationship with Clarke and he's not even the most likely call up if there's one or two injuries. His best chance is if Christie or Armstrong get ruled out for some reason. He's done well at Southampton but he's not even a regular starter for them. He's started less than half of their games since he joined.

On 11/02/2024 at 13:51, Nesta said:

How is it nonsense?  Boyd is obviously a better player. They both rattled them in at Scottish Premiership level but had deficiencies in their game that meant they weren't ideally suited for Scotland. 

Dykes and Adams aren't particularly alike either but they have attributes, as does Brown, that lend themselves quite well to playing up front for us. That's why the manager has seen them as his three first choices for a while now.

I don't think Boyd's "obviously a better player". Boyd was a flat track bully who was an outstanding finisher and scored a lot of goals. He lacked the all round game to make it at the very top level. Shankland's a far better footballer. So are Dykes and Adams actually. They all offer far more outside the penalty area than Boyd ever did. Boyd and Shankland both lack a yard of pace and score a lot of goals. There the comparison ends.

On 13/02/2024 at 19:44, JS_FFC said:

I don’t think Clarke will necessarily rule out taking both Hearts keepers even if one of them is frozen out for the rest of the season.

As you say it’s highly unlikely that the 3rd keeper will play (and fairly unlikely that the 2nd keeper will even play).

I actually think even if Zander Clark is keeping Gordon out of the team for Hearts, I’d still probably expect Craig Gordon to start for Scotland if Gunn isn’t available. Clarke is fairly loyal to guys that have done well for him in the past and I kind of think the Hearts situation is largely a case of Clark not deserving to be dropped than him actually being the better of the two keepers. 

I still think it's very difficult to take Craig Gordon if he's not playing for Hearts. So far, despite being fit now, he's managed a couple of Scottish Cup starts. His best chance barring injury to Clark, is that Hearts go on to make the final of it and get him at least another 3 games in it, and that with 3rd place secured early, Naismith starts giving him league game time post split. Stevie Clarke's loyal but he's not going to throw a squad place at someone who hasn't justified it. If Hearts lose the next cup tie and Clark plays out the league season I don't think Gordon goes.

That said, Kelly's 'form' this season isn't exactly making that decision a certainty. Either way I think that's the most difficult phone call he's going to have to make on squad announcement day.

[Ewanandmoreagain]

Boyd was not ideally suited for Rangers IN Europe iirc !

[2426255]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Since then Shankland's done everything he possibly could do elevate his position and Brown's done nothing (and Nisbet's barely played). 

I'd love to have seen him transfer somewhere that would've presented more of a challenge. I accept it may not have been up to him in January. It's a tough one. I have been impressed by Shankland, up to a point - I just have a reservation about him which is probably summed up by this quote.

Spoiler

Quote

Aye, probably because I knew Hearts would be a team who create chances. Hearts tend to be at the top end of the table so as a striker coming in I fancied myself to score goals. 

Lawrence Shankland

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/why-lawrence-shankland-knew-hed-succeed-hearts-robbo-rapport-scotland-hopes-next-targets-4511429

People say Kris Boyd was a flat-track bully. There is a case that Lawrence Shankland is too. I've not seen anything that convinces me he'd be any better in games against Germany, Hungary and Switzerland than the rest of our options - he's an unknown in that respect, we don't know his ceiling. We haven't seen if Shankland can perform at higher levels and that won't change before Euro-2024. If he gets selected then I'll look forward to seeing how he does. 

Edited February 15 by 2426255

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

I'd love to have seen him transfer somewhere that would've presented more of a challenge. I accept it may not have been up to him in January. It's a tough one. I have been impressed by Shankland, up to a point - I just have a reservation about him which is probably summed up by this quote.

  Hide contents

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/why-lawrence-shankland-knew-hed-succeed-hearts-robbo-rapport-scotland-hopes-next-targets-4511429

People say Kris Boyd was a flat-track bully. There is a case that Lawrence Shankland is too. I've not seen anything that convinces me he'd be any better in games against Germany, Hungary and Switzerland than the rest of our options - he's an unknown in that respect, we don't know his ceiling. We haven't seen if Shankland can perform at higher levels and that won't change before Euro-2024. If he gets selected then I'll look forward to seeing how he does. 

I'm not sure he needs "more of a challenge" any more than say Calum McGregor does but there's no denying he's playing in a lower level of football than even the English 2nd tier is. However, he is also scoring against the OF at the moment and within the confines of where he actually is, it's hard to see how he could have done much more to impress in the last 4 months. From not even making the squad against Georgia originally, he's now the most in form player in Scotland.

I hesitated to describe Boyd as a flat track bully. He kind of was in that he scored a lot of goals with Rangers when the rest of their team just laid things on for him and he didn't really do that well anywhere else other than Kilmarnock. That said, he did in three different spells score regularly for Killie and they certainly weren't a dominant side at their level. He didn't though have much else to his game besides scoring goals and to an extent was a passenger in a team that didn't get in the opposition box regularly. Which is why he didn't get all that many caps for Scotland.

Shankland's issue is different. He's a goalscorer AND he's a fine footballer. He's not a very top footballer because he's too slow. And that won't change but he has adapted his game better to use the attributes he does have I think. He's learning all the time and getting better and better. He's never a flat track bully because his short spell with Dundee United in the Championship apart he's never played in a team that dominates other teams. He's playing in relatively average teams. Ayr in the Championship (and League One) and Hearts in the Premiership aren't particularly special sides. There were better sides in both divisions but Shankland MADE them a far better side.

Do I think he's going to get much of a kick if he starts against Germany, Hungary and Switzerland? Doubt it. We'll need the energy and pace of Adams or Dykes to lead the line there (and perhaps Dykes defensive side too particularly against the Germans). But if we're 1-0 down in game three and need a draw to get through I know which one is more likely to find the net. Probably more likely than anyone eligible for our squad to do so, even McGinn and McTominay. There's a long three months or so ahead and there may be injuries both to him or others that changes the playing field, but I don't really think it's in question right now he's in our 23.

Edited February 15 by Skyline Drifter

[craigkillie]

Boyd adapted his game towards the end of his career, perhaps as a result of his time in Turkey and the USA, or perhaps just because he was smart enough to realise that he needed to, in his latter two spells at Killie I'd say he was much more of a well-rounded player, his link-up play was really good and he was a leader on the pitch. If he'd been that player earlier in his career, and if he hadn't spat the dummy with Burley, I think he'd have had 15-20 more caps.

His international goalscoring record was good, but it's correct to point out he didn't score against anyone decent. At Killie he did score a relatively high number of goals against Rangers and Aberdeen while they were battling for 2nd and 3rd, so it's not fair to say that he only scored against minnows. Scoring 136 goals for a club the size of Killie in this era, and 126 of them against top flight opposition, is an incredible achievement, even before you look at the similar number he scored for Rangers. People can talk about it being easy to score for Rangers, but if that's true why have very few others been scoring 25+ per season for them, as he did in each of his four full years there? I think Morelos (twice) is the only other player to do it for them in a season where they've been playing in the top flight.

Shankland is in a similar boat, he started out as a goalscorer, his record is prodigious wherever he has been in Scotland, at least since he screwed the nut a bit at Ayr, and as he has got older, the rest of his all-round game has developed. If he makes the right choices for the rest of his career, which I'd suggest probably involves staying in Scotland, then he has a good chance of picking up a few more caps. Whether those caps come at a major finals against top class opposition is a different story though.