The halfway (or slightly beyond) report..

[jagfox]

17 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

It cannot be overstated just how good being in the championship has been for our attendances.  For most of my life, Arbroath's attendances hovered in the 600-800 range.  Now we sit as a mid level championship team.  Yes, we are helped greatly by bigger away crowds, and having the Dundee teams in our league the last two seasons has been excellent, but we have also considerably grown our home support.  We have also better engaged with the community, sell way more merch, and grown our "big game" potential of casual fans.  Long term, we are in a good place.  

I think we're helped by having a board that didn't build themselves an evil directors box in the stadium.

Yeah, Arbroath have done great off the park and apparently have built a healthy bank balance. Like some other clubs the bare attendances as player recruitment is from their own pool, best of part-time players if available and then mostly punts on players from down south or guys trying to get into the full-time sphere. Makes it difficult overall.

[Salvo Montalbano]

26 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

It cannot be overstated just how good being in the championship has been for our attendances.  For most of my life, Arbroath's attendances hovered in the 600-800 range.  Now we sit as a mid level championship team.  Yes, we are helped greatly by bigger away crowds, and having the Dundee teams in our league the last two seasons has been excellent, but we have also considerably grown our home support.  We have also better engaged with the community, sell way more merch, and grown our "big game" potential of casual fans.  Long term, we are in a good place.  

I think we're helped by having a board that didn't build themselves an evil directors box in the stadium.

I know Arbroath's gates will be boosted by their proximity to Dundee and their season ticket sales after a spectacular season before, but I find it amazing that they had a higher average attendance than Raith last season. It's refreshing that the Arbroath board also made slight improvements to the ground without messing things up too much, although the police stopping fans swapping ends at half time is a bit of a blow.

[oneteaminglasgow]

1 hour ago, AuldReekie said:

I think Arbroath will see an improved return so you are probably talking nearer 40 points for guaranteed safety.

On what basis? Genuinely.

They’ve got 17 points, and 12 of them came in the first 7 games where they won 4 in a row.. The fact they’ve taken 5 points from the 11 games since doesn’t scream to me that they’re about turn their fortunes around drastically, even if the fans say performances have been a bit better. 

[jagsfan57]

4 hours ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

Last season, we budgeted to finish second (which obviously never happened). We also had Jacqui Low in charge for most of it, and the time she was ousted previously, David Beattie had to make massive cuts elsewhere (like cancelling team buses to away games) because she had made such an arse of it. I’d guess that Covid is still playing a part in it as well where we received a lower grant than everyone else in the division by virtue of the fact that we were in League One at the time.

This season, we’ve got the Jags Foundation contributing 10k a month, alongside a one-off 50k donation made in June. We had the stadium naming rights sold, plus a 500k investment from elsewhere. Most of that was known about when budgets were still being set, so I imagine without those ours would be genuinely significantly reduced, and the players you’re talking about wouldn’t be playing for us. 

If I had to guess, I’d say that our budget has been reduced from last season, but that it’s still one of the larger ones in the division. I’d guess at Dundee United (obviously) and Raith being bigger, but that ours is possibly next after that. 

I am thinking that our budget, compared to 22/23 was cut pretty significantly. We had a hole of £300K, which would’ve been in excess of £600K without the Rangers cup tie. The TJF money and stadium naming rights offsets that a bit. But, as far as I understand, the £500K investment is to keep the bank topped up rather than used in the budget. And as we don’t have a scheduled home game after tomorrow until the end of Feb, we are going to need a chunk of that.

[AuldReekie]

6 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

On what basis? Genuinely.

They’ve got 17 points, and 12 of them came in the first 7 games where they won 4 in a row.. The fact they’ve taken 5 points from the 11 games since doesn’t scream to me that they’re about turn their fortunes around drastically, even if the fans say performances have been a bit better. 

I'm really just going with the old "better management team" + "better performances" = "better results" formula.

There's obviously no guarantees but I'd be surprised if they fared worse than the first half of season.

[spot on]

14 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

I know Arbroath's gates will be boosted by their proximity to Dundee and their season ticket sales after a spectacular season before, but I find it amazing that they had a higher average attendance than Raith last season. It's refreshing that the Arbroath board also made slight improvements to the ground without messing things up too much, although the police stopping fans swapping ends at half time is a bit of a blow.

And the also had a lot less thug shit  bag supporters who teamed up to beat up a defenceless disabled fan on his own at a bus stop which is also amazing. 

[TxRover]

4 hours ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

If I had to guess, I’d say that our budget has been reduced from last season, but that it’s still one of the larger ones in the division. I’d guess at Dundee United (obviously) and Raith being bigger, but that ours is possibly next after that. 

2 hours ago, madton said:

Is it that incredible when Murray has basically had a blank cheque this season? 

Signing guys like Hamilton, Mullin Dabrowski, Watson, Murray, Byrne mostly on very good, long term contracts will have cost a small fortune for the new owners as well as all the infrastructure improvements etc

Good luck to them, I'd have loved someone to come in and do the same at Morton but it's not exactly fairytale stuff here. Their budget from last season when they finished 7th to this year will be night and day.  No doubt they are performing well but it's hardly a shock to see them up there, think most of us expected it.

Dont mind the Rovers so hopefully they maintain it and pip United to the title.

I think that the suggestion that Raith have bought this success is overblown. Hamilton and Watson were both released and likely took decent pay cuts as neither was a “big name signing”, although Hamilton came closest. Murray is a Championship player and likely getting paid as such, Byrne is a loan, and Dąbrowski was not exactly highly sought. We also jettisoned several of our top earners from previous seasons, MacDonald, Spencer, Lang and now Ross. I think a lot of what we achieved was done on the basis of Murray knowing what he had to do early on, as we had nothing to play for and a new management team laying out a roadmap. I would be surprised if our budget topped fourth behind DU, PT and the Pars.

3 hours ago, AuldReekie said:

The next 6 weeks will be season defining. QP (A), Airdrie (H), QP (H), Dundee United (A), Morton (H), Arbroath (H). We really should be strong enough to pull in 9 points from this lot and that takes us to 32 points. In the last five seasons, that would almost certainly see you safe and we'd be talking achieving that by mid-February. This would then give club a platform to take more time addressing injuries and if find some form, be more aggressive in chasing 4th place.

For comparison, using the last 30 years of the Championship…average points per place:

1st - 74, 2nd - 64, 3rd - 59, 4th - 56, 5th - 51, 6th - 46, 7th - 42, 8th - 39, 9th - 35, 10th - 25

Using current form: We’d expect 83 and 82 atop the league; 61 for third; 46, 45 and 44 for fourth thru sixth; 38 for seventh; 34 and 34 in eighth and ninth; and 28 off the bottom. As you can see, the points hogs in the top three result in everyone from fourth to eighth being below the usual totals, with the bottom two closer to average.

There’s never been the two top teams both over 80, with close races almost always being in the low 70’s or high 60’s. 2010-2011 seems the closest parallel to where the points may all work out, if you add back in Dundee’s 25 point deduction. Probably 1999-2000’s 76 vs 71 is the closest parallel to the current race, with St. Mirren being second at end of the third quarter (by one point, but with a game in hand) before accelerating to the title.

[oneteaminglasgow]

6 minutes ago, TxRover said:

I think that the suggestion that Raith have bought this success is overblown. Hamilton and Watson were both released and likely took decent pay cuts as neither was a “big name signing”, although Hamilton came closest. Murray is a Championship player and likely getting paid as such, Byrne is a loan, and Dąbrowski was not exactly highly sought. We also jettisoned several of our top earners from previous seasons, MacDonald, Spencer, Lang and now Ross. I think a lot of what we achieved was done on the basis of Murray knowing what he had to do early on, as we had nothing to play for and a new management team laying out a roadmap. I would be surprised if our budget topped fourth behind DU, PT and the Pars.

Jack Hamilton could have had his pick of Championship clubs, I’d be astounded if Dabrowski never had any other offers. Euan Murray is another who would have had other offers. Byrne being a loan player doesn’t mean you’re not paying for him, but I also know that his personal life means that staying in or close to Fife is preferential for him. Josh Mullin is one who you clearly outbid another team in this league for.

None of this is to say that Murray isn’t doing a good job, or that you haven’t spent money well - demonstrably, he is and you have - but you can’t just pretend that Raith don’t have an obviously good championship budget. 

[cb_diamond]

1 hour ago, spot on said:

And the also had a lot less thug shit  bag supporters who teamed up to beat up a defenceless disabled fan on his own at a bus stop which is also amazing. 

Ahh, I see you're well versed in the "Jives Miguel school of random, grammatically questionable lash outs".

[TxRover]

22 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

Jack Hamilton could have had his pick of Championship clubs, I’d be astounded if Dabrowski never had any other offers. Euan Murray is another who would have had other offers. Byrne being a loan player doesn’t mean you’re not paying for him, but I also know that his personal life means that staying in or close to Fife is preferential for him. Josh Mullin is one who you clearly outbid another team in this league for.

None of this is to say that Murray isn’t doing a good job, or that you haven’t spent money well - demonstrably, he is and you have - but you can’t just pretend that Raith don’t have an obviously good championship budget. 

Jack had choices, that doesn't mean big money, it just means Championship money. Dąbrowski was a signing that was mocked by several as he hadn't played as a number one yet, so likely wasn't a big one, especially as we had let MacDonald go and made it clear he was coming in to be No1. Murray, absolutely, see Hamilton. Byrne, as a loanee, is likely covered partially by Dundee. Mullin, 100% agree. Even so, the savings from dropping some top earners likely covered this "spree", and being able to offer before other can also save a wee bit.

No, I agree we're probably about third or fourth in spending. We'll all agree DU are top spenders...the Pars were likely spending at least as much as us last season in League One due to their attendance income being quite a bit higher, and are surely higher this year...PT is the borderline call. Last year PT were certainly spending more, this year its likely to be a very near thing.

I expect Ayr, Arbroath, ICT and Morton are all clustered in the second tier of spending, with Airdrie a wee bit below. QP, I have no idea. 

[Cardle is Magic]

7 hours ago, ecto said:

Where did you expect to be?

 

7 hours ago, Tattie36 said:

Surely this time last season all Dunfermline fans would have bitten your hand off to be where they are now?

If you think any Pars fan would have been excited about losing every derby, barely averaging a point per game at EEP and struggling to score a goal then I’m afraid you are mistaken.

If other clubs have lower expectations then that’s up to them.

[Tattie36]

18 minutes ago, Cardle is Magic said:

 

If you think any Pars fan would have been excited about losing every derby, barely averaging a point per game at EEP and struggling to score a goal then I’m afraid you are mistaken.

If other clubs have lower expectations then that’s up to them.

Fair enough. Just doesn’t look, from the outside, that the Pars are having a particularly poor season and will comfortably end up mid table imo. I also know that there’s nothing worse than fans of other teams defining your expectations and place in the pecking order, particularly if the product on display is grim. We had plenty of both of those last season.

[Chippyminton]

5 hours ago, spot on said:

And the also had a lot less thug shit  bag supporters who teamed up to beat up a defenceless disabled fan on his own at a bus stop which is also amazing. 

The epitome of the brain-dead P&B roaster. Uninformed, uneducated, needless, pointless, and hugely offensive to decent Rovers supporters, to decent Pars supporters, to the reputation of the 'offending' club, and most of all - to the wee laddie on the receiving end of the thuggery. This thread's been incredibly civilised and respectful - until you showed up.

So just f**k off back to your scheme.

[Chippyminton]

6 hours ago, jagfox said:

Yeah, Arbroath have done great off the park and apparently have built a healthy bank balance. Like some other clubs the bare attendances as player recruitment is from their own pool, best of part-time players if available and then mostly punts on players from down south or guys trying to get into the full-time sphere. Makes it difficult overall.

Agreed. But I'd also add (unrelated) that Gayfield's always been my favourite away day, and reading through other club supporters forums - it seems that I'm not alone. Always guaranteed great craic and banter over a few pints with Lichties supporters, both before and after games.

Edited January 5 by Chippyminton

[ExiledLichtie]

 

6 hours ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

I know Arbroath's gates will be boosted by their proximity to Dundee and their season ticket sales after a spectacular season before, but I find it amazing that they had a higher average attendance than Raith last season. It's refreshing that the Arbroath board also made slight improvements to the ground without messing things up too much, although the police stopping fans swapping ends at half time is a bit of a blow.

I don't think occasional visitors realise how much our ground has changed in recent years.  Off the top of my head, we've installed new turnstiles (and a new ticketing system), a new office and front facade, new (additional) toilets, new segregation, new enclosure roofs, new crush barriers, all new seats in the stands, new dugouts, completely renovated dressing rooms, damaged concrete repaired, the whole ground repainted, improved hospitality, floodlights upgraded, a media portacabin installed, an "upcoming match" board, and the world's tiniest electronic scoreboard.  A lot of money has gone into the ground!  

 

 

[McGuigan1978]

19 hours ago, AuldReekie said:

I think you are probably right.

At half way stage, Arbroath are on 17 points, QP on 14 points. If you assume a similar return in second half, you'd be looking at 34 and 28 points respectively for play-off and relegation. Above them, Caley Jags and Ayr on 18/19 respectively (with Caley Jags having played an extra game). 

I think Arbroath will see an improved return so you are probably talking nearer 40 points for guaranteed safety.

Arbroath were picking up more points per game under Dick Campbell than they are currently under Jim McIntyre. 

[adamntg]

12 hours ago, ExiledLichtie said:

 

I don't think occasional visitors realise how much our ground has changed in recent years.  Off the top of my head, we've installed new turnstiles (and a new ticketing system), a new office and front facade, new (additional) toilets, new segregation, new enclosure roofs, new crush barriers, all new seats in the stands, new dugouts, completely renovated dressing rooms, damaged concrete repaired, the whole ground repainted, improved hospitality, floodlights upgraded, a media portacabin installed, an "upcoming match" board, and the world's tiniest electronic scoreboard.  A lot of money has gone into the ground!  

 

 

Tuesday was the first time I’d been there since that Scottish Cup tie in 1994 and I thought it was a very tidy wee ground. 
 

Couldn’t see any scoreboard right enough, and from our vantage point we couldn’t see the nearside corner of the park, but we did notice the new roofs etc. 

[stevoraith]

On the topic of Raiths budget, a very good point was made on the Rovers podcast a few weeks back. 
And that is that we have no ‘fat’ in our squad. With the possible exception of the two teenage defenders, every man in our squad is quality and can be brought on without a significant drop in quality to the player he replaces. 
It means that we don’t have a very big squad but because we have so many quality options off the bench it appears to others like we must have spent a fortune. 
Compare that to ourselves in previous years, or indeed clubs like Inverness who have players in the squad that are really just there to make up the numbers. 
I think we do have a budget which is probably in the top four of the division, but I think the key point is that we’re spending more wisely than, for example, Dunfermline. 

[HoBNob]

3 hours ago, stevoraith said:

On the topic of Raiths budget, a very good point was made on the Rovers podcast a few weeks back. 
And that is that we have no ‘fat’ in our squad. With the possible exception of the two teenage defenders, every man in our squad is quality and can be brought on without a significant drop in quality to the player he replaces. 
It means that we don’t have a very big squad 

I think that's precisely why you have one of the bigger budgets in this division tbh. No one has a very big squad in this division, however allot of teams have to compliment them with youth players or "punts". 

Raith Rovers though as you point out don't have that, they have about 19 first team quality players plus Hannah and Corr? That doesn't come cheap. 

[FLDiamond]

Mid-season review from The Herald

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/24032288.thrilling-scottish-championship-takes-centre-stage-winter-break/

Unsure if it will let you see the full content but a good analysis on the teams 

Edited January 7 by FLDiamond