Junior Takeover

[GNU_Linux]

18 minutes ago, Cairn Cheerleader said:

The South Cup although has better teams in it has no finance or even a sponsor therefore it's a bit of an inconvenience to some clubs. This is why Alex is asking if clubs want to make the entry optional. Ultimately it's up to each club.

The SCC has a deal with Carmat Kings are as of a few months ago.

[GordonS]

The defences of Gartcairn and similar sides here read like someone with a trust fund from the bank of mum and dad complaining that those pointing out their unfair advantages are just jealous.

Football is a zero-sum game and every winner needs a loser. If a club is getting boosted by cash going into their playing squad from anything other than matchday income, market-rate sponsorship and so on then they're not having success on merit, and other clubs that can only spend what they've earned through their own efforts are bumped down the league system below them and miss out on cup wins or runs too.

A secondary impact that's apparent in England and will be repeated here if it continues is clubs in an arms race, being forced to whore themselves to rich guys looking for a hobby, leading to increasingly sketchy chancers taking control of clubs. The risks to their existence is obvious.

If locals with money want to put invest in things like youth development or facilities that's great. If they put it into the first team squad they're just skewing the competition.

Asking people to "applaud the ambition" is pretty insulting. There's nothing ambitious about having money fall into your lap. It's sheer blind luck.

Other new clubs are working with what they earn, like (afaik) BSC Glasgow and Inverkeithing Hillfield Swifts. If you care about fairness and meritocracy in sport, that's who you should be be applauding.

[BANKIEBILL]

21 minutes ago, GordonS said:

The defences of Gartcairn and similar sides here read like someone with a trust fund from the bank of mum and dad complaining that those pointing out their unfair advantages are just jealous.

Football is a zero-sum game and every winner needs a loser. If a club is getting boosted by cash going into their playing squad from anything other than matchday income, market-rate sponsorship and so on then they're not having success on merit, and other clubs that can only spend what they've earned through their own efforts are bumped down the league system below them and miss out on cup wins or runs too.

A secondary impact that's apparent in England and will be repeated here if it continues is clubs in an arms race, being forced to whore themselves to rich guys looking for a hobby, leading to increasingly sketchy chancers taking control of clubs. The risks to their existence is obvious.

If locals with money want to put invest in things like youth development or facilities that's great. If they put it into the first team squad they're just skewing the competition.

Asking people to "applaud the ambition" is pretty insulting. There's nothing ambitious about having money fall into your lap. It's sheer blind luck.

Other new clubs are working with what they earn, like (afaik) BSC Glasgow and Inverkeithing Hillfield Swifts. If you care about fairness and meritocracy in sport, that's who you should be be applauding.

As long as they're working within the rules, being transparent with relevant authorities and to an extent - not preaching to everyone else - then there's not too much can be done - in absence of any financial fair play or anything approaching. Talbot ( and their fans obvs ) can be annoying of course but everything is done on a sustainable basis and on back of previous success, good management and a lot of hard work. It's hard to emulate and will take some time. Let's not kid ourselves on though. The business chucking tens of thousands at a new or small club, isn't emulating what Talbot have done. It's not a model for anyone other than what can be done when a group of guys decide to chuck some money at something. Gartcairn and St Cadocs aren't offering a pathway by spending thousands on a McShane or a Ferguson or by buying the entire East Kilbride side most of whom had senior experience I believe ?? It's happened elsewhere. If a legacy of facilities and organisation is left to build on then you can at least point to something positive. If not then of course it skews the playing field. The Drum haven't brought through talent, neither have Johnstone Burgh - they've been able to operate purely by chucking money at something. Its not against any rules, its incredibly frustrating if you are not following that "model" and you have to question what's the final goal for it , but we just have to try and compete. Just don't gaslight folk by calling it a model and imply that it can be done by everyone. No amount if Social Media is bringing fans to these clubs. That'll take years, decades. How long will these businessmen hang about ?

[Cairn Cheerleader]

4 hours ago, GNU_Linux said:

The SCC has a deal with Carmat Kings are as of a few months ago.

Apologies I wasn't aware of that. So what's the prize money now?

[Dev]

4 hours ago, Cairn Cheerleader said:

Great post... it's a very difficult one as the level between under 20s and WOSPL is very big. Gartcairn have several clubs who we loan players to help their development but all train with us all  pre season and at least once per week. 

Re a previous point:

"The under 20's and younger at, say, Gartcairn also gain the benefit of regular use of the senior sides' facilities, with changing facilities, lights, seats etc. or is it the other way round? i.e. the seniors use the Under age players park?"

Do the youngsters get to borrow the first teams' pitch at all e.g. for matches and or training sessions? I am guessing that they do use them but no idea if they really do so maybe a red herring question. If they do have use do you think that it adds meaningfully to their progress?

 

[Cairn Cheerleader]

4 hours ago, GordonS said:

The defences of Gartcairn and similar sides here read like someone with a trust fund from the bank of mum and dad complaining that those pointing out their unfair advantages are just jealous.

Football is a zero-sum game and every winner needs a loser. If a club is getting boosted by cash going into their playing squad from anything other than matchday income, market-rate sponsorship and so on then they're not having success on merit, and other clubs that can only spend what they've earned through their own efforts are bumped down the league system below them and miss out on cup wins or runs too.

A secondary impact that's apparent in England and will be repeated here if it continues is clubs in an arms race, being forced to whore themselves to rich guys looking for a hobby, leading to increasingly sketchy chancers taking control of clubs. The risks to their existence is obvious.

If locals with money want to put invest in things like youth development or facilities that's great. If they put it into the first team squad they're just skewing the competition.

Asking people to "applaud the ambition" is pretty insulting. There's nothing ambitious about having money fall into your lap. It's sheer blind luck.

Other new clubs are working with what they earn, like (afaik) BSC Glasgow and Inverkeithing Hillfield Swifts. If you care about fairness and meritocracy in sport, that's who you should be be applauding.

Interesting Gordon.

Gartcairn are funded by only sponsorship and are backed up with some good gate money coming from our loyal 50 fans and sometimes 100 - 150 away fans. As I said though, all these clubs you mention are years older than us and I'm sure in their early years did start with 200 supporters.

Indigo Comms, Amp Procurement, 525 Accountants, Leisure Connect, Greenversity Renewables and Lanarkshire Gas are all our main sponsors and allow us to not only bring in players but help with kit, facilities and giving back to our community. 
 

We have raised over 30k this season alone for our local community and our sponsors also sponsor the Indigo Comms West of Scotland Cup and Greenversity will be involved next season also.

 

[Cairn Cheerleader]

3 hours ago, BANKIEBILL said:

As long as they're working within the rules, being transparent with relevant authorities and to an extent - not preaching to everyone else - then there's not too much can be done - in absence of any financial fair play or anything approaching. Talbot ( and their fans obvs ) can be annoying of course but everything is done on a sustainable basis and on back of previous success, good management and a lot of hard work. It's hard to emulate and will take some time. Let's not kid ourselves on though. The business chucking tens of thousands at a new or small club, isn't emulating what Talbot have done. It's not a model for anyone other than what can be done when a group of guys decide to chuck some money at something. Gartcairn and St Cadocs aren't offering a pathway by spending thousands on a McShane or a Ferguson or by buying the entire East Kilbride side most of whom had senior experience I believe ?? It's happened elsewhere. If a legacy of facilities and organisation is left to build on then you can at least point to something positive. If not then of course it skews the playing field. The Drum haven't brought through talent, neither have Johnstone Burgh - they've been able to operate purely by chucking money at something. Its not against any rules, its incredibly frustrating if you are not following that "model" and you have to question what's the final goal for it , but we just have to try and compete. Just don't gaslight folk by calling it a model and imply that it can be done by everyone. No amount if Social Media is bringing fans to these clubs. That'll take years, decades. How long will these businessmen hang about ?

Paying thousands for a McShane and a Ferguson first of all didn't happen however for the benefit of your constant poking at my club let's just say it did. We have  20 year old in goals 22 year old cm a 19 year old left winger who all start plus 2 or 3 under 21s in the first team squad who benefit extremely well playing and training with your Ian Mcshanes's, Ross Dunlops, Mark McGuigan's and Thomas Reillys of this world. I'm sure the Clydebank boys are playing for nothing and didn't cost a penny. The big bad bankies even paid over 10k for an AIRDRIE boy Truesdale who can't get a game.
 

your best just concentrating on your own teams failings instead of trying to look for everyone else's. We deservedly took 4 point from 6 off Clydebank this season with a model off the park that allowed us to do that on the park. 
 

im also really glad you guys mucked it up this season and didn't win the league so we can welcome your brilliant 100 fans back to MTC Park

[Cairn Cheerleader]

15 minutes ago, Dev said:

Re a previous point:

"The under 20's and younger at, say, Gartcairn also gain the benefit of regular use of the senior sides' facilities, with changing facilities, lights, seats etc. or is it the other way round? i.e. the seniors use the Under age players park?"

Do the youngsters get to borrow the first teams' pitch at all e.g. for matches and or training sessions? I am guessing that they do use them but no idea if they really do so maybe a red herring question. If they do have use do you think that it adds meaningfully to their progress?

 

The full academy use our facilities and they are going to be further upgraded over the summer 

[Vanderbilt]

1 hour ago, Cairn Cheerleader said:

Paying thousands for a McShane and a Ferguson first of all didn't happen however for the benefit of your constant poking at my club let's just say it did. We have  20 year old in goals 22 year old cm a 19 year old left winger who all start plus 2 or 3 under 21s in the first team squad who benefit extremely well playing and training with your Ian Mcshanes's, Ross Dunlops, Mark McGuigan's and Thomas Reillys of this world. I'm sure the Clydebank boys are playing for nothing and didn't cost a penny. The big bad bankies even paid over 10k for an AIRDRIE boy Truesdale who can't get a game.
 

your best just concentrating on your own teams failings instead of trying to look for everyone else's. We deservedly took 4 point from 6 off Clydebank this season with a model off the park that allowed us to do that on the park. 
 

im also really glad you guys mucked it up this season and didn't win the league so we can welcome your brilliant 100 fans back to MTC Park

The pictures are of Bankies fans you never had 50 at the game more like 5!

Edited April 13 by Vanderbilt

[Shanner]

You don't get more ambitious than putting your club badge on the ceiling. 

[Vanderbilt]

2 hours ago, Cairn Cheerleader said:

Paying thousands for a McShane and a Ferguson first of all didn't happen however for the benefit of your constant poking at my club let's just say it did. We have  20 year old in goals 22 year old cm a 19 year old left winger who all start plus 2 or 3 under 21s in the first team squad who benefit extremely well playing and training with your Ian Mcshanes's, Ross Dunlops, Mark McGuigan's and Thomas Reillys of this world. I'm sure the Clydebank boys are playing for nothing and didn't cost a penny. The big bad bankies even paid over 10k for an AIRDRIE boy Truesdale who can't get a game.
 

your best just concentrating on your own teams failings instead of trying to look for everyone else's. We deservedly took 4 point from 6 off Clydebank this season with a model off the park that allowed us to do that on the park. 
 

im also really glad you guys mucked it up this season and didn't win the league so we can welcome your brilliant 100 fans back to MTC Park

Can guarantee that Truesdale is on about 1/3 of what McShane is on.

Despite you spending a fortune on players you’ll still finish miles behind us.Not that anyone gives a stuff in Airdrie!

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

3 hours ago, Cairn Cheerleader said:

Paying thousands for a McShane and a Ferguson first of all didn't happen however for the benefit of your constant poking at my club let's just say it did. We have  20 year old in goals 22 year old cm a 19 year old left winger who all start plus 2 or 3 under 21s in the first team squad who benefit extremely well playing and training with your Ian Mcshanes's, Ross Dunlops, Mark McGuigan's and Thomas Reillys of this world. I'm sure the Clydebank boys are playing for nothing and didn't cost a penny. The big bad bankies even paid over 10k for an AIRDRIE boy Truesdale who can't get a game.
 

your best just concentrating on your own teams failings instead of trying to look for everyone else's. We deservedly took 4 point from 6 off Clydebank this season with a model off the park that allowed us to do that on the park. 
 

im also really glad you guys mucked it up this season and didn't win the league so we can welcome your brilliant 100 fans back to MTC Park

The absolute nick of this post. Letting the actual true feelings seep out. Look at the capitalised ‘AIRDRIE’ haha. Honestly you can pretend all you want that Mcshane etc just always dreamed of one day playing for Gartcairn or just admit much the same as Johnstone Burgh you’re throwing someones money at players. 
 

Might disagree with Talbot fans and Pollok Beith etc over here, but at least these are clubs who live within their means. And for all the slagging backwards and forwards these clubs absolutely deserve respect for the length of time they’ve been able to be successful, hopefully join them in spfl2 one day. 

Edited April 13 by Inanimate Carbon Rod

[BANKIEBILL]

3 hours ago, Cairn Cheerleader said:

Paying thousands for a McShane and a Ferguson first of all didn't happen however for the benefit of your constant poking at my club let's just say it did. We have  20 year old in goals 22 year old cm a 19 year old left winger who all start plus 2 or 3 under 21s in the first team squad who benefit extremely well playing and training with your Ian Mcshanes's, Ross Dunlops, Mark McGuigan's and Thomas Reillys of this world. I'm sure the Clydebank boys are playing for nothing and didn't cost a penny. The big bad bankies even paid over 10k for an AIRDRIE boy Truesdale who can't get a game.
 

your best just concentrating on your own teams failings instead of trying to look for everyone else's. We deservedly took 4 point from 6 off Clydebank this season with a model off the park that allowed us to do that on the park. 
 

im also really glad you guys mucked it up this season and didn't win the league so we can welcome your brilliant 100 fans back to MTC Park

Look mate. Asides from this thread and partly in reaction to the "car share" video where I've posted a couple of things that imply criticism of your model - im not sure ive mentioned Gartcairn before. That reaction's mainly with regards to Alex McDowell ( with a paid position should he be connected with a specific team ? ) implying that it was a model that could be replicated. Its not. It's wholly dependent on a bunch of folk chucking money at it. It's not a pathway unless kids are coming through. If your keeper and centre mid have some through your academy then that's a legitimate retort. I suspect there's not much evidence of it though from a club that's based on a boys club. 

Re not spending £000s on players - give me a break. Its not illegal but McDowell gave the game away himself in the video. Chucking money at a team is not new - in fact it's becoming more prevalent. Its been happening since at least the 90s - Kilwinning, Bathgate, Meadow, Hurlford, Darvel, Johnstone Burgh, Drumchapel, St Cadocs and now you. There's probably more of it around and the inevitable end result is backers back out and the club has to face reality. As I say- it's not illegal but it has had the effect of clubs having to either accept they can't compete at same level or overreach and get into bother. Pollok seem to be an example of that. I'm sure there are others that are hiding it better. 

So tbh I don't pay that much attention to Gartcairn unless we're playing you. I wasn't at either game for family reasons. Guys at 1st game were complimentary at the start you made and that we were fortunate to get a point. 2nd game - which I saw on stream - there wasn't much in it. Given your struggles over season then a 1 point return was probably disappointing but you have some smashing players. 

I don't have any particular ill will towards Gartcairn - there's every chance that you'll be among front runners next season and we'll have to deal with that. I'm not sure what your end game is or the motivation of the guys involved but it's a legitimate club. Just don't pretend your something you're not. 200 fans doesn't count for much in the way of income or justify the kind of wages you'll be paying - you're entirely dependent on the input of a few guys. Best of luck with it 

[Burnieman]

11 hours ago, Cairn Cheerleader said:

I can see there are a few people on here who will never be pleased and seem to have something against Alex McDowall, just so you're aware no one really cares about the personal insults you spout. At least this guy is putting himself in the firing line to try and make things better along with everyone in any position of power. Ultimately it's up to all 80 clubs to decide the outcome of any ideas put forward so if you have a moan and a greet, contact your club to put your issues forward where it counts. 

What's he trying to make better, what are the problems with the WoS that need the CEO of the SJFA to make better?

 

[Burnieman]

9 hours ago, Cairn Cheerleader said:

I don't know but he will bring suggestions for all 80 clubs to consider. As will all the board. The Junior Cup has the history and now the finance which makes it the top competition in non league football. The South Cup although has better teams in it has no finance or even a sponsor therefore it's a bit of an inconvenience to some clubs. This is why Alex is asking if clubs want to make the entry optional. Ultimately it's up to each club.

So he's there to get the Junior Cup competition as the priority for WoS clubs which is at odds with most of the rest of the Pyramid?   a clear conflict of interest, and not healthy.

[An Absolute Imposter]

Right as I've stated, I grew up in a Junior household. Surrounded by Ants people through and through, I'm pretty sure I was told some ancestors were involved in the clubs setup. Cousins from Barrhead Lie people again involved at club. Others followed Johnstone Burgh. Myself I went to Newlandsfield with my clan from Dormanside Rd, a pilgrimage on the 21 bus. 

I was there when Mr Fulton had his day in the sun. My cousins at family gatherings still remind me about the 4-0 final. Our win 17 years prior is less important apparently. 

So don't tell me I'm not a Junior man.

But firstly I'm a football man, I don't get this obsession with the SJC above all else. Yes it is a wonderful competition, but do you know what so is the League, the WOSFL Cup and the SRCC, at which I have seen some really good games between teams at different levels.

I understand the potential financial gain from getting to the latter stages of the SJC can prove vital funds for a club. 

But in truth, like all cups it's only a half dozen games or so a season, so unless you get to the final or whatever is there really any monetary value to it. The league is the week in, week out bread and butter and all clubs should be focused on maximising footfall at these games.

One aspect about all this is how it is the SJFA that is pushing this.

I have no extra information to give myself, but how much revenue do the SJFA make out of running this competition with entry fees and the 2 legged semi finals on top if the final.

Why is it the only comp with this semi-final setup, if it was a one-off game at a neutral venue who pays for the 'hire' of the neutral ground. 

As for prioritising a cup above the league; that is a complete joke and should not be up for discussion. 

As an outsider it does come across as a money making venture for the SJFA.

Rant over, enjoy your Sunday off to do the horses.

Edited April 14 by An Absolute Imposter

[FairWeatherFan]

10 hours ago, Burnieman said:

What's he trying to make better, what are the problems with the WoS that need the CEO of the SJFA to make better?

 

Take 15% off the gate of every game and give it to the Premier clubs in prize money

[Shanner]

36 minutes ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

Right as I've stated, I grew up in a Junior household. Surrounded by Ants people through and through, I'm pretty sure I was told some ancestors were involved in the clubs setup. Cousins from Barrhead Lie people again involved at club. Others followed Johnstone Burgh. Myself I went to Newlandsfield with my clan from Dormanside Rd, a pilgrimage on the 21 bus. 

I was there when Mr Fulton had his day in the sun. My cousins at family gatherings still remind me about the 4-0 final. Our win 17 years prior is less important apparently. 

So don't tell me I'm not a Junior man.

But firstly I'm a football man, I don't get this obsession with the SJC above all else. Yes it is a wonderful competition, but do you know what so is the League, the WOSFL Cup and the SRCC, at which I have seen some really good games between teams at different levels.

I understand the potential financial gain from getting to the latter stages of the SJC can prove vital funds for a club. 

But in truth, like all cups it's only a half dozen games or so a season, so unless you get to the final or whatever is there really any monetary value to it. The league is the week in, week out bread and butter and all clubs should be focused on maximising footfall at these games.

One aspect about all this is how it is the SJFA that is pushing this.

I have no extra information to give myself, but how much revenue do the SJFA make out of running this competition with entry fees and the 2 legged semi finals on top if the final.

Why is it the only comp with this semi-final setup, if it was a one-off game at a neutral venue who pays for the 'hire' of the neutral ground. 

As for prioritising a cup above the league; that is a complete joke and should not be up for discussion. 

As an outsider it does come across as a money making venture for the SJFA.

Rant over, enjoy your Sunday off to do the horses.

Most teams will take whatever income they can get; that's just good, responsible stewardship. Cynics can't be applauding Talbot, etc for being self-sustaining and then criticizing those same teams for exploiting a completely fair and merit-based source of income.  We've seen excellent crowds at the Talbot games (and other clubs games) in the cup in the post-COVID seasons. The reduction of the competition's geographical scope has arguably helped in this regard as we have had consecutive derbies against Cumnock and a couple of local grudge match ties v Darvel which have got the fans out.

Apart from the crowd at an end-of-season league decider, you can guarantee that a Junior Cup crowd will be significantly bigger and feel like more of an occasion than a league game v the same opponents. I don't know what that translates to as money in the bank but it must be worth it.

Most of the obsession about the SJC you mention comes from the "progressive" gang rather than the participants. I strongly suspect that most teams in the Junior Cup are there for pragmatic reasons now and fully realise that it is a shadow of what it was in the recent past.  Many would most likely drop it in a minute if a more lucrative alternative cup was on offer - but there isn't, so if you're given melons you make melonaid. 

Whether it's one game or half a dozen, it represents income that would otherwise be closed off to teams if we didn't participate - yes you get more the further you go; that's not an unusual way to distribute prize money, but it's worth the gamble that you could do a Yoker and get to the final. 

If some clubs don't want a slice of this then that's their prerogative but they probably need to accept that other teams are getting on with doing the best for themselves. The fixtures could probably be managed better but it's not an impossible task to accommodate the SJC in its current, truncated form. 

 

 

[Cairn Cheerleader]

14 hours ago, Vanderbilt said:

The pictures are of Bankies fans you never had 50 at the game more like 5!

That was the point ya donut lol that was your magnificent away support and I hope to see them again very soon. We always have around 50 but you won't notice them as they don't scream at officials for every decision!

[Cairn Cheerleader]

13 hours ago, Vanderbilt said:

Can guarantee that Truesdale is on about 1/3 of what McShane is on.

Despite you spending a fortune on players you’ll still finish miles behind us.Not that anyone gives a stuff in Airdrie!

We will see what happens next season as no matter where we finish you're still playing in this league next season also! And you had at least double the budget this season.