Reason for horrible exit: lack of quality or overly-defensive tactics?

[No_Problemo]

I don’t think not getting through to the last sixteen is actually the issue here, it’s the manner of our performances. 

I could have accepted not getting through, fine margins and all that. 

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 minute ago, No_Problemo said:

I don’t think not getting through to the last sixteen is actually the issue here, it’s the manner of our performances. 

I could have accepted not getting through, fine margins and all that. 

Yeah that's it, obviously glorious failure is something we're sick of. But it's alot easier to live with than pathetic failure.

[itzdrk]

3 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

So the teams who went thru are all top 16 teams?

12 of the teams through are, as I said luck is a factor as well.  I'd consider an element of luck for all of the 4 non top 16 teams that made it through. 

Georgia got to play top seed last and they played their reserves, they were also given a dodgy penalty. 

Slovakia pretty lucky to go through instead of Ukraine who beat them and finished on equal points.  

Slovenia didn't win a game, pure luck. 

Romania got an iffy penalty that saw them through.   

[Highlandmagar]

5 minutes ago, itzdrk said:

12 of the teams through are, as I said luck is a factor as well.  I'd consider an element of luck for all of the 4 non top 16 teams that made it through. 

Georgia got to play top seed last and they played their reserves, they were also given a dodgy penalty. 

Slovakia pretty lucky to go through instead of Ukraine who beat them and finished on equal points.  

Slovenia didn't win a game, pure luck. 

Romania got an iffy penalty that saw them through.   

At least these countries had a few shots on goal??

[itzdrk]

3 minutes ago, Highlandmagar said:

At least these countries had a few shots on goal??

Indeed. 

Fighting an uphill battle as it is with the lack of quality but we were essentially asking our players to score 100% of chances created.  

[Butters Scotch]

1 hour ago, itzdrk said:

I mean this is part of the problem, having unrealistic expectations is going to get you mad when reality hits.  We just simply put are not a top 16 UEFA side so have no right to think getting through the group phase of the Euros would be anything other than luck.  

Data:

  Reveal hidden contents

2024: Best Rank: 19 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 22 (UEFA) Average: 20.5

2023: Best Rank: 17 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 21 (UEFA) Average: 19

2022: Best Rank: 21 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 24 (UEFA) Average 22.5

2021: Best Rank: 18 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 22 (UEFA) Average: 20

2020: Best Rank: 23 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 26 (UEFA) Average: 24.5

2019: Best Rank: 22 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 27 (UEFA) Average: 24.5

2018: Best Rank: 19 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 23 (UEFA) Average: 21

2017: Best Rank: 15 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 31 (UEFA) Average: 23

2016: Best Rank: 22 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 25 (UEFA) Average: 23.5

2015: Best Rank: 16 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 22 (UEFA) Average: 19

2014: Best Rank: 23 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 27 (UEFA) Average: 25

That gives us an average (of averages) over the last decade of about 22.  

I wish we were better but we just aren't. 

We just don't produce the talent, especially in attacking areas.  

Not getting what's unrealistic here?

We have good enough players to qualify more than we do not qualify, there's plenty of other teams out there doing it so why can't we? People are far too negative about our chances. 

[Highlandmagar]

Just now, itzdrk said:

Indeed. 

Fighting an uphill battle as it is with the lack of quality but we were essentially asking our players to score 100% of chances created.  

Maybe if Clarke had been a bit more adventurous we would have done a wee bit better.

[Butters Scotch]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Okay, A few unhappy with my position.

For those of you that feel strongly let down with what Scotland gave at the Euros, What does not accepting it look like then? 

Not attending Nations League games? Protests? something else? 

Don't really get your point here, we all have to accept we were shit at the euros and move on with it. Whether that is with Clarke at the helm or not and hope the team does better in future. 

[Butters Scotch]

18 minutes ago, itzdrk said:

12 of the teams through are, as I said luck is a factor as well.  I'd consider an element of luck for all of the 4 non top 16 teams that made it through. 

Georgia got to play top seed last and they played their reserves, they were also given a dodgy penalty. 

Slovakia pretty lucky to go through instead of Ukraine who beat them and finished on equal points.  

Slovenia didn't win a game, pure luck. 

Romania got an iffy penalty that saw them through.   

Portugal's 'reserves' would still be one of the best teams in Europe, they're squad depth is unreal

[Billy Jean King]

I think Dykes is a far bigger miss than many think / expected. He has his limitations but he has an ability to get our more attacking midfielders involved much further up the park just through his physical approach. Neither Adam's or Shankland can do that. We needed someone to drag us 15-20 yards up the park in attacking sense and that itself brings the likes of Mctominay and McGinn far more into the game offensively.  That said Clarke must know none of our available strikers were able to fulfil that role yet he pretty much played as though they could tactically. 

[ogoftheskye]

Any talk of "growth" or similar is simply errant garbage. At Euro 2020 we were playing our first major tournament in 23 years with a weaker, less experienced squad, and our opposition were an eventual finalist, and eventual quarter finalist, and a finalist at the previous world cup. We gave a much better account of ourselves then than now, and this time in an unquestionably weaker group (Germany *possibly* excepted; it remains to be seen how good they actually are.) In terms of how we compete at tournament level, we've actually gone backwards. How is this progress?

[2426255]

3 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

Don't really get your point here, we all have to accept we were shit at the euros and move on with it. Whether that is with Clarke at the helm or not and hope the team does better in future. 

That is the point. People can chat away saying: 'The performance at Euro-2024 is unacceptable",  but at the end of the day the Euros will be accepted. We accept it was shite and move on.

If the Nations League goes poorly and World cup qualifying starts poorly that is far less likely to be accepted by the decision makers. 

It'll be interesting to see if Clarke gets an extension this time. I'd guess not, but not sure how it works. Wouldn't be surprised if they were in negotiations since we qualified back in 2023.

Edited June 27 by 2426255

[Gordon EF]

34 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

That is the point. People can chat away saying: 'The performance at Euro-2024 is unacceptable",  but at the end of the day the Euros will be accepted. We accept it was shite and move on.

If the Nations League goes poorly and World cup qualifying starts poorly that is far less likely to be accepted by the decision makers. 

It'll be interesting to see if Clarke gets an extension this time. I'd guess not, but not sure how it works. Wouldn't be surprised if they were in negotiations since we qualified back in 2023.

You understand that when people say things like "It's unacceptable for Ralston to play a blind pass like that" during the Switzerland game, they're talking figuratively. They're not saying that they literally will not accept it and intend on following Tony Ralston around and spraying him in the face with water if he tries to do it again?

Similarly, when people call Scotland's performance at the Euros "unacceptable", they don't mean they are actually, personally, going to spring into action and do something about it?

[2426255]

6 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

You understand that when people say things like "It's unacceptable for Ralston to play a blind pass like that" during the Switzerland game, they're talking figuratively. They're not saying that they literally will not accept it and intend on following Tony Ralston around and spraying him in the face with water if he tries to do it again?

Similarly, when people call Scotland's performance at the Euros "unacceptable", they don't mean they are actually, personally, going to spring into action and do something about it?

Yes. I don't think there's much fans can do at the moment even if they wanted to and that's probably why Clarke will be under pressure, but have a chance to get them back onside.

The contract situation is the more interesting one for me as I think he may be due an extension if he has completed certain terms within that by qualifying for Euro-2024. I'm not sure exactly how that works, but if he did get an extension in September fans won't be happy. 

[JS_FFC]

12 hours ago, itzdrk said:

I mean this is part of the problem, having unrealistic expectations is going to get you mad when reality hits.  We just simply put are not a top 16 UEFA side so have no right to think getting through the group phase of the Euros would be anything other than luck.  

Data:

  Reveal hidden contents

2024: Best Rank: 19 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 22 (UEFA) Average: 20.5

2023: Best Rank: 17 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 21 (UEFA) Average: 19

2022: Best Rank: 21 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 24 (UEFA) Average 22.5

2021: Best Rank: 18 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 22 (UEFA) Average: 20

2020: Best Rank: 23 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 26 (UEFA) Average: 24.5

2019: Best Rank: 22 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 27 (UEFA) Average: 24.5

2018: Best Rank: 19 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 23 (UEFA) Average: 21

2017: Best Rank: 15 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 31 (UEFA) Average: 23

2016: Best Rank: 22 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 25 (UEFA) Average: 23.5

2015: Best Rank: 16 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 22 (UEFA) Average: 19

2014: Best Rank: 23 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 27 (UEFA) Average: 25

That gives us an average (of averages) over the last decade of about 22.  

I wish we were better but we just aren't. 

We just don't produce the talent, especially in attacking areas.  

You’re right, we are not. The question then becomes, who are the top 16 sides in UEFA? I maintain that we SHOULD be aiming to become one.

 

 

France, Spain, Germany, England, Portugal, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium and Croatia are a pretty clear top 9.

 

The next 7 spots are up for grabs. On a world rankings basis that’s Switzerland, Denmark, Ukraine, Austria, Poland, Hungary and Sweden.

 

So you could argue that 11 out of the actual top 16 are in the knockout stage and then the 5 teams who have punched above their weight are Slovakia, Romania, Slovenia, Türkiye and of course Georgia. 
 

Ukraine, Hungary and Poland from the second group disappointed with a group stage exit along with Croatia from the top 9. Sweden didn’t even qualify and their time in the top 16 rankings will be ending soon although they’ll probably be on the up again soon with Isak and Gyokeres.

 

Anyway my point is that I don’t really see why we should accept being stuck below that second tier. Looking at the sides in there we’ve played all of them apart from Sweden in recent years. We drew with Switzerland last week and lost to Hungary due to a 100th minute winner. Denmark we traded 2-0 wins with. Ukraine outclassed us in the World Cup playoff but then we took 4 points off them in the nations league. Austria we took 4 points off in World Cup qualifying and drew 2-2 in a friendly. Poland we drew 1-1 with.

 

I see no reason why we *shouldn’t* be able to ascend into that 10-16 level. In fact I’d argue that our results from autumn 2021 through to summer 2023 suggest we already were playing amongst that tier, but for some reason we just go into our shell in the really big moments.

[2426255]

13 hours ago, itzdrk said:

I mean this is part of the problem, having unrealistic expectations is going to get you mad when reality hits.  We just simply put are not a top 16 UEFA side so have no right to think getting through the group phase of the Euros would be anything other than luck.  

Data:

  Reveal hidden contents

2024: Best Rank: 19 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 22 (UEFA) Average: 20.5

2023: Best Rank: 17 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 21 (UEFA) Average: 19

2022: Best Rank: 21 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 24 (UEFA) Average 22.5

2021: Best Rank: 18 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 22 (UEFA) Average: 20

2020: Best Rank: 23 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 26 (UEFA) Average: 24.5

2019: Best Rank: 22 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 27 (UEFA) Average: 24.5

2018: Best Rank: 19 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 23 (UEFA) Average: 21

2017: Best Rank: 15 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 31 (UEFA) Average: 23

2016: Best Rank: 22 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 25 (UEFA) Average: 23.5

2015: Best Rank: 16 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 22 (UEFA) Average: 19

2014: Best Rank: 23 (UEFA), Worst Rank: 27 (UEFA) Average: 25

That gives us an average (of averages) over the last decade of about 22.  

I wish we were better but we just aren't. 

We just don't produce the talent, especially in attacking areas.  

Agreed. Creating history was aspirational and a realistic ambition to set. For fans setting Scotland's maximum capability as their minimum expectation is the unrealistic part and as you say it required luck, overperformance or one of our opponents to implode. 

[2426255]

1 hour ago, JS_FFC said:

Anyway my point is that I don’t really see why we should accept being stuck below that second tier. I see no reason why we *shouldn’t* be able to ascend into that 10-16 level. 

That is the aim, is it not? To improve to a point where we are consistently competitive at pot-1 level: Clarke has made no secret of that and it's the reason we took the hard friendlies against England, Netherlands and France. We are trying to get there and it's normal to have obstacles and setbacks.

Quote

We are still searching for that improvement that can close the gap on the top sides. Hopefully as we are striving to reach the top sides. We are looking to move further away from the sides that are seeded below us. That has to be our objective. We are a pot two team now, but we have to be a better pot two team, and eventually, we have to try to latch on to the pot one teams.

Steve Clarke, March 2024

[true fan]

We should not have played England, Netherlands and France right after 2nd Spain game.

DO play them but not one after the other, before a tournament

we went from being on the crest of a wave to serial losers in short order. Momentum is important

Edited June 28 by true fan

[SouthLanarkshireWhite]

13 hours ago, Billy Jean King said:

I think Dykes is a far bigger miss than many think / expected. He has his limitations but he has an ability to get our more attacking midfielders involved much further up the park just through his physical approach. Neither Adam's or Shankland can do that. We needed someone to drag us 15-20 yards up the park in attacking sense and that itself brings the likes of Mctominay and McGinn far more into the game offensively.  That said Clarke must know none of our available strikers were able to fulfil that role yet he pretty much played as though they could tactically. 

I think that could be a pertinent point. Whatever Adams' strengths, holding onto the ball until support arrives was not one of them in Germany. 

 

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 hour ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

I think that could be a pertinent point. Whatever Adams' strengths, holding onto the ball until support arrives was not one of them in Germany. 

 

In terms of that, I was thinking if Adams was maybe 3 ft taller so about 9ft, and could run twice as fast. Our tactics would have been pretty spot on.