24th out of 24

[Bad Wolf]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Gareth Southgate mentioned it in an interview yesterday: "We live in a world where the outcome determines the narrative". 

The performance is poor because because of the outcome. Previous examples of poor performances (Moldova, Faroe Islands, Norway, Israel) where the desired outcome is achieved lead to a discussion different to that of the Hungary game. Some poor performances have yielded the most memorable and thrilling victories.

If Scotland had beaten Hungary 1-nil with that performance level then we wouldn't be seeing this reaction. The driver for fans unhappiness with the performance is the outcome and that's why I see this entire discussion essentially as a toys out the pram scenario from the fans.

Just because you post the same thing every day doesn't mean that the rest of us would. Most here are perfectly capable of analysing the performance and the result as different aspects of the same game. If we'd got a penalty against Hungary, scored it, then they failed to equalise; we'd still have objectively been utter shite for the other 90+ minutes of the game, even if we'd qualified. 

[immcinto]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Greece won the Euros in 2004, so that should be our aspiration. If they can do it: so can we. Crazy argument.

It is. Not my argument. I don't expect to win the whole thing. 

I said we should stop accepting mediocrity. One the reasons for bringing a higher level non-UK coach that doesn't have our defeatist mentality, and won't accept it from his players

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

Just because you post the same thing every day doesn't mean that the rest of us would. Most here are perfectly capable of analysing the performance and the result as different aspects of the same game. If we'd got a penalty against Hungary, scored it, then they failed to equalise; we'd still have objectively been utter shite for the other 90+ minutes of the game, even if we'd qualified. 

Yip, he's right that the media narrative would be very different if the same performance had yielded a different result, which could conceivably have happened. 

He's also right in suggesting that lots of fans would have gormlessly claimed it was brilliant.  Even on here, plenty would have been in that camp.  Again, the game in Norway last year is a great illustration of it.

 

However, plenty of us, particularly those still posting in this thread, can recognise the distinction that can exist between what we offer and what we get.  As it was, on this occasion there was no great distinction.

His contempt for fans - all fans, even those who understand the offside law, just engulfs his capacity to be objective.

[VictorOnopko]

3 hours ago, 2426255 said:

I thought taken at face value the comments made about the referee were poor, irrational and not in keeping with someone who has fought hard against sectarianism. I don't have a strong view on how the media have handled it, but Clarke was obviously emotional, reactionary and perhaps would regret saying that in the cold light of day.

If I were his manager at the SFA then I would sit down with him and ask him why he said that. I wouldn't jump to conclusions, but if it turns out he is an imperialist racist and was implying that an Argentinean ref wasn't ever going to let a UK team win because of the Falklands War then I'd support him being sacked.

Hmm, you're building a big straw man there, in another deflection attempt to avoid looking too closely at Clarke's very odd approach to these finals, which was rounded off by losing his temper in a clearly xenophobic (and nonsensical) outburst. Taking what he said to a ridiculous extreme as you've just done doesn't hide the fact that it was yet another instance of very, very bad judgement from him - and it told us a bit more about his character, which isn't as low-key clever and charming as many wanted to assume. He did seriously suggest that a South American should not have been the referee as "I don’t understand why he’s here and not in his own country refgereeing a game", along with this when challenged about being too defensive: “Is that why we went out of the tournament? Well, we scored two goals this time and we only scored one the last time."

OK Steve.

I should add, as this will be my final post on this exhausting thread, that I was a Clarke fanboy and one of the folk urging other people to calm down during our dismal friendly run, even after the Norn Irn game. I thought he was an intelligent manager who would spring a few surprises at the finals; that he would have learned from Euro 20/21, and that he'd use the squad astutely. In retrospect all the signs were there, so it was just blind faith. I was wrong on every count.

PS "Reactionary", a word you keep using to describe "the fans" and above even to your beloved Steve, is a good term for Clarke. It means ultra-conservative, and strongly opposed to progress.

[Bad Wolf]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yip, he's right that the media narrative would be very different if the same performance had yielded a different result, which could conceivably have happened. 

He's also right in suggesting that lots of fans would have gormlessly claimed it was brilliant.  Even on here, plenty would have been in that camp.  Again, the game in Norway last year is a great illustration of it.

 

However, plenty of us, particularly those still posting in this thread, can recognise the distinction that can exist between what we offer and what we get.  As it was, on this occasion there was no great distinction.

His contempt for fans - all fans, even those who understand the offside law, just engulfs his capacity to be objective.

I read the Guardian, which I consider shite, because the Scottish press is even more shite; so I don't pay much attention to what it says. I spend a fair amount of time on P&B, but not much (aside from when big tournaments are on) on this board as I find it to be overly full of gormless flag-wavers. But, as you say, I am aware that not everyone is like that. I'm happily unaware of our pal's views on the offside law, though!

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 hour ago, VictorOnopko said:

Hmm, you're building a big straw man there, in another deflection attempt to avoid looking too closely at Clarke's very odd approach to these finals, which was rounded off by losing his temper in a clearly xenophobic (and nonsensical) outburst. Taking what he said to a ridiculous extreme as you've just done doesn't hide the fact that it was yet another instance of very, very bad judgement from him - and it told us a bit more about his character, which isn't as low-key clever and charming as many wanted to assume. He did seriously suggest that a South American should not have been the referee as "I don’t understand why he’s here and not in his own country refgereeing a game", along with this when challenged about being too defensive: “Is that why we went out of the tournament? Well, we scored two goals this time and we only scored one the last time."

OK Steve.

I should add, as this will be my final post on this exhausting thread, that I was a Clarke fanboy and one of the folk urging other people to calm down during our dismal friendly run, even after the Norn Irn game. I thought he was an intelligent manager who would spring a few surprises at the finals; that he would have learned from Euro 20/21, and that he'd use the squad astutely. In retrospect all the signs were there, so it was just blind faith. I was wrong on every count.

PS "Reactionary", a word you keep using to describe "the fans" and above even to your beloved Steve, is a good term for Clarke. It means ultra-conservative, and strongly opposed to progress.

Your wasting your time mate, he gets chewn up and spat out regularly but doesn't even know.

He's very attached to clarke so his feelings are hurt. Hopefully he will take a break soon.

[2426255]

2 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

His contempt for fans - all fans, even those who understand the offside law, just engulfs his capacity to be objective.

I am definitely generalising wrt fans. I dont have a negative view of all fans. Most of them? yeah probably.

I cringe at the majority of England fans views on their team and manager, but I don't think Scotland fans, in general, are any different in that respect.

1 hour ago, VictorOnopko said:

 to avoid looking too closely at Clarke's very odd approach to these finals,

PS "Reactionary", a word you keep using to describe "the fans" and above even to your beloved Steve, is a good term for Clarke. It means ultra-conservative, and strongly opposed to progress.

I always look in detail back over the games to fully understand them. I haven't finished that as I spread it between camps: 5-10 minutes here and there looking at different aspects of performance.

Clarke has said that they attempting to improve, evolve and progress as a team. We have done all of those things and we are trying to make the final step.

The ambition is there, but sometimes you take a step in wrong direction and then you have to get back on the track.

Edited Sunday at 13:44 by 2426255

[immcinto]

1 minute ago, 2426255 said:

I am definitely generalising wrt fans. I dont have a negative view of all fans. Most of them? yeah probably.

I cringe at the majority of England fans views on their team and manager, but I don't think Scotland fans, in general, are any different.

I always look in detail back over the games to fully understand them. I haven't finished that as I spread it between camps: 5-10 minutes here and there looking at different aspects of performance.

Clarke has said that they attempting to improve, evolve and progress as a team. We have done all of those things and we are trying to make the final step.

The ambition is there, but sometimes you take a step in wrong direction and then you have to get back on the track.

We are regressing, it isn't a blip. It has been there for over a year and there doesn't seem to be any idea of a solution. All managers have a shelf life, even the best. Let's thank Clarke for the good run we had with him and move on ASAP. Gives us a chance for the WC qualifiers 

[tarapoa]

Both quarter-finalists so far were in our group - were we just unlucky with the draw?

[Bing.McCrosby]

5 minutes ago, tarapoa said:

Both quarter-finalists so far were in our group - were we just unlucky with the draw?

No we were shite

[tarapoa]

28 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

No we were shite

agreed - certainly in games 1 and 3 - the Swiss game was okay against good opponents.

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 hour ago, tarapoa said:

agreed - certainly in games 1 and 3 - the Swiss game was okay against good opponents.

Yeah it was, which is quite annoying for me shows we had more to give.

[Butters Scotch]

6 hours ago, 2426255 said:

I am definitely generalising wrt fans. I dont have a negative view of all fans. Most of them? yeah probably.

I cringe at the majority of England fans views on their team and manager, but I don't think Scotland fans, in general, are any different in that respect.

I always look in detail back over the games to fully understand them. I haven't finished that as I spread it between camps: 5-10 minutes here and there looking at different aspects of performance.

Clarke has said that they attempting to improve, evolve and progress as a team. We have done all of those things and we are trying to make the final step.

The ambition is there, but sometimes you take a step in wrong direction and then you have to get back on the track.

Pretty sad behaviour that you have a contempt for most Scotland fans, it explains why you post the way you do on here. I wonder why you bother debating with other posters with the way you feel about others. 

[Hendricks]

7 hours ago, tarapoa said:

Both quarter-finalists so far were in our group - were we just unlucky with the draw?

 

And now Spain too, who even the biggest doom merchants would surely admit we competed well against in qualifying! Hopefully 2 of those 3 are in the semi-finals! 

[Barry Ferguson's Hat]

Football. Grapefruit.

[ekok]

Watching games in last few days has confirmed my belief. 

I am 100% embarrassed at how my national team performed at the second most prestigious tournament,  behind the World Cup,

We were spineless,  negative., scared,  pathetic,  a full on shitebag job, I defy Clarke to defend his decisions. 

We don't expect anything,  beyond being the best we can be.

If we are going down,  which mostly we do, can we please do so in a Scottish manner, 

 

[No_Problemo]

8 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

I do not watch English football, so I can not comment on Adams in the context of how he plays for his club sides, but just to indulge me, would you mind elaborating a bit on what, precisely, you perceive Che Adams strengths to be?

I have watched most of his minutes in a Scotland shirt, and while I thought it was immediately apparent that he is not just unsuited to the role of being a solitary forward, he is entirely incapable of playing that role, I'm also still at a loss to understand what Che Adams actually is. He shows no sort of instinct in and around the penalty box that you expect of a natural goalscorer, his movement when the team is in possession is non-existent in the respect that he never appears to make any sort of threatening run, he frequently takes up utterly nonsensical positions that take him out of the play entirely due to the fact even the best passers in the world would be unable to find him, he isn't particularly strong with the ball at his feet but also shows no ability to pull wide and take it in space, for example the way Leigh Griffiths used to, as a means to hold it up and bring team mates into play, he offers no threat in the air, he's a liability when asked to come back and help defend, and I can't recall him ever doing anything with the ball that created an opportunity for a team mate.

So what type of player is he? What sort of role is he suited to? Because as far as I can see, he's a completely empty jersey that offers absolutely nothing to the team beyond being willing to run around a bit.

You are viewing all this through the prism of him not having attacking players within fifty yards of him. 

His movement is generally good and he links the play really well, in a team that attempts to play football. 

We didn’t see anything from him at the tournament. If you watch him for Southampton or whoever he ends up at next season, I imagine you will see more from him.

He doesn’t play at that level because he runs about a bit. 

 

[ekok]

Just watched exactly how we should have played,  Slovenia ( 18 places lower in FIFA rankings) giving  100% in first half v Portugal. The may run out of steam,  but if that was my team I would be proud, the exact opposite of my feelings, even now.

Forget, Injuries, shape, tactics,  giving your all is the bare minimum when you put on that shirt. 

 

[edinabear]

As the days go by it becomes more embarrassing for Scotland. A truly shameful tournament from Clarke. He needs to go

[nate]

1 hour ago, edinabear said:

As the days go by it becomes more embarrassing for Scotland. A truly shameful tournament from Clarke. He needs to go

Yep. As the days go by it becomes apparent that most if not all the “minnows” performed better than the sum of their parts. We performed worse than the sum of our parts. That’s on the coach.