What is the point of labour ?

[BawWatchin]

There's literally nothing the Scottish branch of Labour can do now to keep Scotland in the UK. Their main HQ doesn't look like it's going to win a general election for at least 100 years. Good luck convincing people in Scotland to bend over and accept a tory shafting for the rest of their lives.

[Pet Jeden]

5 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

There's literally nothing the Scottish branch of Labour can do now to keep Scotland in the UK. Their main HQ doesn't look like it's going to win a general election for at least 100 years. Good luck convincing people in Scotland to bend over and accept a tory shafting for the rest of their lives.

And there, in your post, is the muddled thinking of your position. Some of us - a minority admittedly - want independence on principle. You and sadly, a big chunk of SNP voters just want a short-cut to escaping Conservative rule. So what happens if 10 years into an independent Scotland there's a Scottish Conservative government and an rUK Labour-Lib Dem government? Are you then going to be bleating for reunification?

[ICTJohnboy]

5 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

It would be good if the Labour Party had a stand out woman candidate but they are all pretty appalling.

Only ‘credible’ candidates are Starmer (who would be a retrograde step politically) and Clive Lewis who is the best option IMO but appears to have limited support.

 

Starmer would do well in London and the south, but is hardly likely to win back any of the seats they lost in their traditional "heartland" areas. It would need to be a out and out brexiteer to pull that off. (if you'll pardon the expression)

As for Scotland there's no way they'll ever regain any significant ground there.

[BawWatchin]

17 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

And there, in your post, is the muddled thinking of your position. Some of us - a minority admittedly - want independence on principle. You and sadly, a big chunk of SNP voters just want a short-cut to escaping Conservative rule. So what happens if 10 years into an independent Scotland there's a Scottish Conservative government and an rUK Labour-Lib Dem government? Are you then going to be bleating for reunification?

You assume that a Scottish Conservative Party in an independent Scotland would be just like that thing we're witnessing at Westminster. Even long term Conservative supporters admit that party is no longer a true Conservative Party. It's turned into something far uglier.

Edited January 4, 2020 by BawWatchin

[Pet Jeden]

6 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

You assume that a Scottish Conservative Party in an independent Scotland would be just like that thing we're witnessing at Westminster. Even long term Conservative supporters admit that party is no longer a true Conservative Party. It's turned into something far uglier.

Don't be pedantic. In an independent Scotland with a Tory government, are you still in? 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

You assume that a Scottish Conservative Party in an independent Scotland would be just like that thing we're witnessing at Westminster. Even long term Conservative supporters admit that party is no longer a true Conservative Party. It's turned into something far uglier.

More to the point the relatively proportional Scottish parliament means that while a single party government is possible it’s very much the exception

[Mr Heliums]

1 hour ago, BawWatchin said:

Good luck convincing people in Scotland to bend over and accept a tory shafting for the rest of their lives.

tbf they've managed it for most of my life.

[Granny Danger]

22 minutes ago, Mr Heliums said:

tbf they've managed it for most of my life.

Yes, and support for Independence is still only hovering around the 50% mark.

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, Pet Jeden said:

Don't be pedantic. In an independent Scotland with a Tory government, are you still in? 

Forever? f**k no. Who would want any situation where a single party rules in perpetuity?

Winning a single election? f**k yes. If the people of Scotland decided they wanted Conservative government, who wouldn't want their wishes to be fulfilled?

[Pet Jeden]

40 minutes ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Forever? f**k no. Who would want any situation where a single party rules in perpetuity?

Winning a single election? f**k yes. If the people of Scotland decided they wanted Conservative government, who wouldn't want their wishes to be fulfilled?

Nobody said forever. But let's say 4 in a row - like the last 4 UK general elections. My guess is that the Bawatchers of this would be whingeing for a reunion. So, not really Scottish Nationalists, just jumping on a bandwagon of convenience.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Pet Jeden

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Nobody said forever. But let's say 4 in a row - like the last 4 UK general elections. My guess is that the Bawatchers of this would be whingeing for a reunion. So, not really Scottish Nationalists, just jumping on a bandwagon of convenience.

 Do you mind if we don’t treat you extrapolating you’re guess of someone else’s reaction to an absurd hypothetical situation across a wide population as having any merit.

 

Because it would be a challenge.

 

 

[BawWatchin]

3 hours ago, Pet Jeden said:

Don't be pedantic. In an independent Scotland with a Tory government, are you still in? 

My support for Scottish Independence goes well beyond party political politics. There is something far bigger and far more sinister taking place on the world stage and I don't want Scotland to be dragged into it.

[BFTD]

42 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Nobody said forever. But let's say 4 in a row - like the last 4 UK general elections. My guess is that the Bawatchers of this would be whingeing for a reunion. So, not really Scottish Nationalists, just jumping on a bandwagon of convenience.

See my second answer.

No idea about this Bawatcher guy, but he wouldn't have to whinge - if the Tories ever won four elections on the trot, they'd have already had us back in the UK before it got to that point. And we'd deserve it.

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

It would help if Labour had anyone capable of understanding the Scottish psyche.

On the whole, we do like a moan but we don't really like change.

When we do make a change we typically don't like to change again anytime soon.

The SNP gained traction up here by telling a compelling story and then showing 7 years of competence before Scots gave them widespread support at all political levels.

Labour need to start making a new story about who they are and why they are relevant to the working person. That story should be a positive one rather than endless anti-Tory and anti-SNP whining. What are they for rather than what they are against. Finally, they need one very crucial thing to go in their favour. They need the SNP to f**k up. Only then will serious change be sought. Until then, Scots like free prescriptions, free uni education, toll-free bridges and a decent economy and I can't see the SNP losing power in the forseeable future.

Part of Labour's problem in Scotland is that they're not actually seen as 'anti-Tory'. Their actions during the referendum of 2014 alienated so many of their natural supporters, it's been impossible for them to recover. 

Their hatred of the SNP is such that they've actually forgotten who their real enemy is. 

The pictures of senior Scottish Labour members cracking open champagne and dancing with Tories in September 2014 are not easily forgotten. 

[Fullerene]

5 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

Part of Labour's problem in Scotland is that they're not actually seen as 'anti-Tory'. Their actions during the referendum of 2014 alienated so many of their natural supporters, it's been impossible for them to recover. 

Their hatred of the SNP is such that they've actually forgotten who their real enemy is. 

The pictures of senior Scottish Labour members cracking open champagne and dancing with Tories in September 2014 are not easily forgotten. 

The Lib Dems suffered in 2015 because too often they were seen sitting cosy with the Tories with a big smile on their faces (especially Nick Clegg and Danny Alexander).

Similarly the DUP have suffered from their recent link to May's government.

Nobody should dance with the Tories.

[Fullerene]

Another problem for Scottish Labour was having one leader after another who was involved in a scandal or some controversy or lacked credibility altogether.

Similar the UK Labour Party has had Corbyn in charge.  While some might admire his idealism, others regard him as highly controversial and totally lacking in credibility. 

For both Scottish Labour and UK Labour the issue is to have a credible leader who gives the impression they would know what to do if they were put in charge.

 

 

[BawWatchin]

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

Nope. What I am doing is posting stuff you agree with.

It's a shame that you use that as a determiner of quality but that's your choice.

Back to posting shite again. 

[BFTD]

3 hours ago, MixuFixit said:

Oaksoft moving back into good posting phase

Logged in to the wrong account after an afternoon on the joy juice.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

It would help if Labour had anyone capable of understanding the Scottish psyche.
On the whole, we do like a moan but we don't really like change.
When we do make a change we typically don't like to change again anytime soon.
The SNP gained traction up here by telling a compelling story and then showing 7 years of competence before Scots gave them widespread support at all political levels.
Labour need to start making a new story about who they are and why they are relevant to the working person. That story should be a positive one rather than endless anti-Tory and anti-SNP whining. What are they for rather than what they are against. Finally, they need one very crucial thing to go in their favour. They need the SNP to f**k up. Only then will serious change be sought. Until then, Scots like free prescriptions, free uni education, toll-free bridges and a decent economy and I can't see the SNP losing power in the forseeable future.

OK - who hijacked Oaksoft's account?

[Fullerene]

10 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Nope. What I am doing is posting stuff you agree with.

It's a shame that you use that as a determiner of quality but that's your choice.

I don't see anything wrong with making a point in an agreeable manner.

In fairness, I am certainly not perfect here nor are several other posters.