What is the point of labour ?

[Gordon EF]

6 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

I accept all of this is true and the electoral system for the UK produces some misleading results.

The big problem for Corbyn was that he was such a polarising figure.  Tony Blair won a majority not simply on the votes he got but because there were plenty of people who would never vote Labour but were not that bothered so they did not vote at all - or they voted Liberal Democrat which had the same effect.  In 1997 there was not much of a Anyone-But-Blair vote.  Obviously that changed later on.  By contrast, there was a determined Anyone-But-Corbyn vote - not so much amongst Labour voters but amongst everyone else.  For example, Liberal Democrat voters who couldn't imagine that Boris Johnson would be worse than Corbyn.

It is the same thing in the USA.  Hopefully the Anyone-But-Biden vote will be less than the Anyone-But-Clinton vote.

 

Yep. Totally accept that there are quirks of the electoral system and different circumstances that make simple comparisons between election results difficult to draw simple conclusions from. That's basically my point. The simple line that Foot and Corbyn were the worst performing post-war Labour leaders and also the most left wing therefore Labour should never have a left wing leader falls down at the first hurdle of the premise simply not being true.

[NotThePars]

It's really funny (depressing) how 2017-2019 has just been memory holed. Like, I think the UK has fucked it as much as anyone else but it wasn't a case of "it was never going to happen." There was a few thousand votes in it and even excusing that if the SNP hadn't unexpectedly lost several seats up here you were likely looking at the fabled coalition of chaos.

Edited November 3, 2020 by NotThePars

[Wee-Bey]

It's cool how it's being slowly whitewashed that a decent chunk of the PLP actively sabotaged their own parties election attempts for years, culminating in some of them being awarded peerages for their efforts.

Much democracy.

[G51]

3 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

It's really funny (depressing) how 2017-2019 has just been memory holed. Like, I think the UK has fucked it as much as anyone else but it wasn't a case of "it was never going to happen." There was a few thousand votes in it and even excusing that if the SNP hadn't unexpectedly lost several seats up here you were likely looking at the fabled coalition of chaos.

Agreed. Brexit and factional wrecking from the centrists are what stopped Labour. They made the wrong decision on Brexit by backing Remain.

[Gordon EF]

18 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

It's cool how it's being slowly whitewashed that a decent chunk of the PLP actively sabotaged their own parties election attempts for years, culminating in some of them being awarded peerages for their efforts.

Much democracy.

Exactly this. Any serious analysis of how well Corbyn did as leader has to take into account that half his own MPs spent his entire time in the job publicly fighting him.

[NotThePars]

10 minutes ago, G51 said:

Agreed. Brexit and factional wrecking from the centrists are what stopped Labour. They made the wrong decision on Brexit by backing Remain.

Corbyn's biggest mistake was not yeeting the wreckers immediately after 2017 as he had the cache in the party (and briefly in the wider press) to do it. The biggest indictment for me was when he intervened to stop the ousting of that snake Tom Watson from the Deputy Leadership, a man who spent 4 years pretty openly briefing to the press and sticking the knife in where he could. He's not the only one to blame ofc and I think McDonnell has escaped a lot of blame even though he himself acknowledged his own failures immediately after 2019 but I think that's where it mostly comes down to in the end. A constant need to engage people in good faith despite it never being extended in return.

It doesn't matter anyway. We're all owned and might as well sit back, wait for Scottish independence, and laugh as England sinks into the sea. They had their chance. if Sir Keir wants to empower the state to commit crimes against Extinction Rebellion while he occasionally delivers a stern warning to the PM three weeks after it leaves the news cycle then good luck to him. If he wants to prioritise sending weans and their parents into the meat grinder of Covid riddled schools to either die or prove a very important point then I hope it goes well.

 

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, G51 said:

Tony Blair - Wanted to sell off more social housing by extending Right To Buy to housing associations, with the explicit political aim of reducing the difference between Labour and Tory policies. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/blair-backs-down-on-right-to-buy-plan-487932.html

Tony Blair - Welcomed 11 private healthcare firms into the ‘NHS family’ and promised them a stronger foothold in the health service. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politics

Tony Blair - Rejected calls for higher taxes on the wealthy, arguing that lower top rates of tax were just ‘the way the world is going’. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/blair-my-pledge-to-cut-taxes-1200487.html

Tony Blair - Introduced fit-for-work tests for disabled people who he said had to ‘justify’ why they were ‘taking money from the state’. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1421401.stm

Tony Blair - Said it was a 'waste of time and energy' taxing the very wealthy and refused to say a growing gap between rich and poor was bad. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/events/newsnight/1372220.stm

Tony Blair - Told private healthcare executives that he wanted to put the whole NHS out to tender for the private sector. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2003/may/14/nhs2000.politics

That's just as far as I could be arsed looking. Still feel comfortable making that argument?

Housing associations - getting housing out of the shitty hands of crap councils like Glasgow and into smaller, community-based housing associations was one of the best policies they had. Did he give the Right to Buy to housing association tenants? He did not. The condition of housing for the lowest income households improved dramatically under New Labour and homelessness fell.

Worth saying, there's nothing inherently wrong with Right to Buy. The two problems were that they sold it off too cheap or without conditions, and they didn't build new homes. If they'd done that it would have been highly beneficial for people on low incomes.

Tax - fact is, with a growing economy he didn't need to tax more. The 10p rate was a flustercluck though, and completely foreseeable. His view was that the gap between rich and poor was irrelevant so long as the poor were getting better off, had a decent standard of living and had opportunities to develop. It's fine to disagree with that but it's not a right wing position.

Benefits - I'm still sure that's as far left as the UK is prepared to go. It was massively better than now, but I agree they opened the door and gave precedents for some heinous shit that followed. I worked in the Benefits Agency in Glasgow 98-00 and it was miles better than what had just been before.

NHS - a lot of that was about bringing as much cash and efficiency into the system as possible. I would say it was naive and dogmatic, and that it didn't work, but I know what they were trying to do.

Yes, I feel exactly as comfortable making that argument as I did before.

[Fullerene]

2 hours ago, NotThePars said:

Corbyn's biggest mistake was not yeeting the wreckers immediately after 2017 as he had the cache in the party (and briefly in the wider press) to do it. The biggest indictment for me was when he intervened to stop the ousting of that snake Tom Watson from the Deputy Leadership, a man who spent 4 years pretty openly briefing to the press and sticking the knife in where he could. He's not the only one to blame ofc and I think McDonnell has escaped a lot of blame even though he himself acknowledged his own failures immediately after 2019 but I think that's where it mostly comes down to in the end. A constant need to engage people in good faith despite it never being extended in return.

It doesn't matter anyway. We're all owned and might as well sit back, wait for Scottish independence, and laugh as England sinks into the sea. They had their chance. if Sir Keir wants to empower the state to commit crimes against Extinction Rebellion while he occasionally delivers a stern warning to the PM three weeks after it leaves the news cycle then good luck to him. If he wants to prioritise sending weans and their parents into the meat grinder of Covid riddled schools to either die or prove a very important point then I hope it goes well.

 

Oh dear.  His biggest mistake was not following Stalin's example.  Kangaroo Court for everyone else.  Have them all shot and replaced by true believers.

Definition of a true believer = someone who does not want to be shot!

John McDonnell has been Corbyn's staunchest ally through thick and thin.  If you are claiming he was a traitor to the cause then you are away with the fairies.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Fullerene

[NotThePars]

1 minute ago, Fullerene said:

Oh dear.  His biggest mistake was not following Stalin's example.  Kangaroo Court for everyone else.  Have them all them shot and replaced by true believers.

Definition of a true believer = someone who does not want to be shot!

John McDonnell has been Corbyn's staunchest ally through thick and thin.  If you are claiming he was a traitor to the cause then you are away with the fairies.

Somehow you've managed to be both ignorant to the recent history of the Labour Party and completely misunderstood something that I said. Here's a capybara with some pals so that everyone who reads this has a good time regardless.

 

[Steve_Wilkos]

 

Here's me. #ILoveSieKeir

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

Housing associations - getting housing out of the shitty hands of crap councils like Glasgow and into smaller, community-based housing associations was one of the best policies they had. Did he give the Right to Buy to housing association tenants? He did not. The condition of housing for the lowest income households improved dramatically under New Labour and homelessness fell.

Worth saying, there's nothing inherently wrong with Right to Buy. The two problems were that they sold it off too cheap or without conditions, and they didn't build new homes. If they'd done that it would have been highly beneficial for people on low incomes.

Tax - fact is, with a growing economy he didn't need to tax more. The 10p rate was a flustercluck though, and completely foreseeable. His view was that the gap between rich and poor was irrelevant so long as the poor were getting better off, had a decent standard of living and had opportunities to develop. It's fine to disagree with that but it's not a right wing position.

Benefits - I'm still sure that's as far left as the UK is prepared to go. It was massively better than now, but I agree they opened the door and gave precedents for some heinous shit that followed. I worked in the Benefits Agency in Glasgow 98-00 and it was miles better than what had just been before.

NHS - a lot of that was about bringing as much cash and efficiency into the system as possible. I would say it was naive and dogmatic, and that it didn't work, but I know what they were trying to do.

Yes, I feel exactly as comfortable making that argument as I did before.

Of course Right to Buy is inherently wrong.  Even if there is some perceived wider practical (rather than ideological) benefit to home ownership it should not be encouraged by depleting the public housing stock.

[Wee-Bey]

[Miguel Sanchez]

12 is the libertarian desired age of consent, yes?

[DublinMagyar]

 
Here's me. #ILoveSieKeir

Having a very small Cock is nothing to be ashamed of

[NotThePars]

Brave stance although unsure if it’ll play well in the Red Wall

[Wee-Bey]

[DrewDon]

4 hours ago, NotThePars said:

Brave stance although unsure if it’ll play well in the Red Wall

Graphic design is a passion of mine. 

[NotThePars]

Graphic design is a passion of mine. 

I can see each individual section flying into the screen on PowerPoint

[Arsenal till I die]

If I was the Labour leader, I was to the left of Blair, to the right of Corbyn, and yet thousands of members who stuck with the party during the Blair years were resigning their memberships, I would be asking myself why. Who is Starmer going to attract to Labour? Lib Dem voters? They want electoral reform, Labour stabbed them in the back with the 97 promise, and he's recently boasted to believing that FPTP always produces the deserved result. Tory voters? There are plenty of Tory voters with school aged kids up and down the country, fearful for their children's lives and outraged at the government for trying to throw their kids in the firing line at the start of the summer when everyone else was protected and everything else was shut. So what did Starmer do? Sack the only person who was sticking up for them. Even from an electability point of view, Starmer is not the person to lead Labour to victory. He is the most divisive Labour leader ever, his behaviour is the exact opposite of the unity under Blair, Labour have only ever stopped the Tories winning elections when they have been united with left wing voters. When their enemy has been Militant, the SNP, Jeremy Corbyn or RLB the Tories have won. With the Red Tory county council in Durham and voters blaming the party as a whole for the council at the last election, I know someone who is planning on voting Tory at the County Council election just to win the seats back at the next General. Starmer and his cult won't realise until it's too late that not everyone who has a problem with him is some sort of Corbynite. Most voters don't care about Israel, they don't care about Palestine, they don't care about RLB, and they don't care what Starmer thinks is and isn't anti Semitic. They care about their kids, most people engaged in politics care about our broken system, and most people in the party care about party unity and not having a leader who will tear the party apart. But he will have his fingers in his ears until it's too late.

[Dunning1874]

I, for one, will be voting Labour again* after this contribution which shows they're serious about winning Scotland back.

*not again because I've never voted for them