What is the point of labour ?

[BucksburnDandy]

On the sacking of Rebecca Long Bailey, it both pushes out a left winger and gets a media win - so a win win for Starmer.

As Labour push further right, it may alienate some of their core voters. But the key to winning is winning middle England, which is a right wing electorate.

[Silvio Tattiescone]

13 hours ago, pandarilla said:

I can't really disagree with the sentiment - but I'm not entirely sure it furthers the independence cause that much. There are far bigger factors that will make it or break for the next referendum, and a Labour govt in wm would improve things considerably up here.

 

 

Edited to add that my initial post wasn't aimed at you, it's wee willie that i feel links everything to independence.

If Labour gets power in Westminster, the SNP will lose support from those on the Left who see independence as a route to a socialist country. A national Labour government spending on public services will always be more attractive than a Tory government.

 

Put another way, the Tories are the best recruiting Sergeant the SNP could ever hope for.

[pandarilla]

If Labour gets power in Westminster, the SNP will lose support from those on the Left who see independence as a route to a socialist country. A national Labour government spending on public services will always be more attractive than a Tory government.
 
Put another way, the Tories are the best recruiting Sergeant the SNP could ever hope for.

I'm not sure there's much evidence of folk wavering between yes and no, depending on who's in power in wm.

And i could be wrong, but i think brexit has pushed the recent improvement in independence numbers rather than the tories.

Clearly it helps though, but my point is that it arguably does wider damage to our society (as does brexit) . I'm not a fan of the 'let's hope things get as shite as possible so that more folk choose independence' approach.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I'm not sure there's much evidence of folk wavering between yes and no, depending on who's in power in wm.  

And i could be wrong, but i think brexit has pushed the recent improvement in independence numbers rather than the tories.

 

Clearly it helps though, but my point is that it arguably does wider damage to our society (as does brexit) . I'm not a fan of the 'let's hope things get as shite as possible so that more folk choose independence' approach.

The contrast between Sturgeon's and Johnson's leadership will also be a factor. 

I've found a lot of people (especially women), who are not particularly political, who have been impressed by her.

 

My wife is s classic example, voted No in 2014 - does not always vote (she thinks a lot of politicians are just liars) but says she will be voting Yes next time round. She says that's down to seeing Sturgeon in action every day.

 

 

[Wee Willie]

 

 

20 hours ago, pandarilla said:

Willie you need to try and take a wee step away from making absolutely everything about Scottish independence.

Most folk on here are independence supporters - but there are genuine disagreements about how to go about achieving this, and it's also not the main priority for everyone.

You quoted loads of posts and tried to link them to Scotland - when folk are discussing other issues.

But you and I bide in Scotland and we can only influence politics in Scotland.

Discussing English politics can only be done as a spectator.

they're nowhere near winning an election from a centre right platform, trying to pretend to be left wing.

You wrote that and I asked if you were referring to Scotland or the rUK. Let's face it that sentence has a different meaning in Scotland and the rUK.

Dorlormin posted that Labour were clearing out the dead wood and it's something we can all support.  Do you believe that?

20 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said:

Pandarilla. tbh I couldn't give a flying f**k about the UK or Scottish Labour party. They burnt their bridges long ago. Starmer is just to the new fucking Blair. Get them to f**k and the Torys. England deserves what it gets. I want independence, so anything that furthers this is good for me

and so say all of us!

17 hours ago, pandarilla said:

I can't really disagree with the sentiment - but I'm not entirely sure it furthers the independence cause that much. There are far bigger factors that will make it or break for the next referendum, and a Labour govt in wm would improve things considerably up here.

 

 

Edited to add that my initial post wasn't aimed at you, it's wee willie that i feel links everything to independence.

But biding in Scotland politics is linked to independence.

You're either for or against.

And as I posted earlier any reference to politics in England or rUK can only be done as a spectator. Unless, of course, you vote for a unionist party in Scotland.

 

[vikingTON]

15 hours ago, BucksburnDandy said:

On the sacking of Rebecca Long Bailey, it both pushes out a left winger and gets a media win - so a win win for Starmer.

As Labour push further right, it may alienate some of their core voters. But the key to winning is winning middle England, which is a right wing electorate.

Indeed. The Mumbleclown admirers on here harbour the delusion though that if only the UK Labour Party keeps tacking ever leftward then eventually they'll sweep to power in a Syriza-style revolt against the establishment. 

[Wee Willie]

18 hours ago, BucksburnDandy said:

I did say I was a natural Labour voter who due to their anti independence stance can't vote for them. Probably should have added traditional Labour and not a New Labour voter.

Personally dead against Trident which is a black mark against Labour but equally I'm a republican who would prefer not to be in Nato.

Ultimately the SNP are a means to the end for me in terms of Westminster and Holyrood constituency votes where they are the only show in town. But my list vote will go Green, like in 2016, as I tend to agree with more of their policies generally than those of the SNP and it has the added potential benefit of increased pro independence list seats, particularly moving to the Highland list area.

But Labour have always been against Scottish independence

____________

I'm the same. Hopefully you and I may be in the same political party post independence.

16 hours ago, BucksburnDandy said:

On the sacking of Rebecca Long Bailey, it both pushes out a left winger and gets a media win - so a win win for Starmer.

As Labour push further right, it may alienate some of their core voters. But the key to winning is winning middle England, which is a right wing electorate.

I belong to another forum and this was posted this morning.

Scottish Labour in turmoil as members quit over indyref2 stance

A LEADING Scottish Labour activist and Yes supporter who was a star speaker at Richard Leonard’s General Election campaign launch last year has quit the party.

Sean Baillie announced his decision on Thursday after Sir Keir Starmer underlined the party’s opposition to a second independence referendum and as a row broke out over the sacking of rival leadership contender and left-winger Rebecca Long-Bailey from his top team.

Basically Sean Baillie said that Labours opposition to a second referendum and the sacking of Rebecca Long-Bailey was too much and he has now quit the Labour Party.

This was my post:

“A LEADING Scottish Labour activist and Yes supporter who was a star speaker at Richard Leonard’s General Election campaign launch last year has quit the party….Baillie was among the left-wing activists who addressed a rally in Maryhill last November where Leonard kickstarted the party’s General Election campaign.”

Well done on at last seeing the light but if you are a left-wing activist why did you support that unionist party who always supports Trident in Scottish waters.
This article was in 2013:
THE MOD has deemed the UK's nuclear deterrent too dangerous to be housed in England, but says an accident in Scotland would result in acceptable collateral damage. 

And presumably you campaigned on these two manifestos
THE LABOUR PARTY MANIFESTO 2017 
Labour supports the renewal of the Trident nuclear deterrent. As a nuclear-armed power, our country has a responsibility to fulfil our obligations under the Nuclear Non- Proliferation Treaty.
and this is the Scottish Labour version. Weasel words from a weasel party
THE SCOTTISH LABOUR PARTY MANIFESTO 2017 
Defence is a reserved issue and UK Labour continues to support the renewal of the Trident nuclear deterrent.

Now I consider myself to be left-wing but there is no way I would endorse any of the Labour Party pledges whether UK or Scottish. But you claim it’s because Starmer sacked a shadow spokesperson and because he said no to a Scottish referendum?
The Labour Party has always opposed a Scottish referendum.
Why on earth did you ever give them your vote?

 

 

[Detournement]

I think anyone who expects Labour members who are resigning because of a shift to the right to start voting SNP are in for disappointment. 

[Detournement]

3 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Who will they vote for instead?

I'm not going to vote. I'm sure a lot of people will feel the same way. 

[jakedee]

This is the part I cannot understand. An independent Scotland would almost certainly vote for a left of centre Government, yet labour voters/ ex voters are prepared to let the status quo continue by either withholding their vote, or turning to another Unionist party.
If the Union is more important than socialism, then fair enough. But really?

I'm not going to vote. I'm sure a lot of people will feel the same way. 

[Detournement]

4 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

I think you're in a very small minority of noble none of the abovers

Turnout in the 2016 election was 55%. None of the above is very popular.

Twilight Zone stuff here

 

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, MixuFruit said:

Who will they vote for instead?

There's no chance Sean Baillie or folk like him will vote SNP. It'll be a spoiled vote, staying at home or Greens. Jackie Baillie's horrible list selections will probably bump a few more votes to the Greens from within her own party as well particularly in Lothian where the best MSP is fighting for his seat.

[pandarilla]

 
 
But biding in Scotland politics is linked to independence.
You're either for or against.
And as I posted earlier any reference to politics in England or rUK can only be done as a spectator. Unless, of course, you vote for a unionist party in Scotland.
 

You replied to me asking about Scotland or britain but it was evidently clear i was talking about Britain. The conversation at that point was about starmer's leadership.

You do this all the time. I'm a committed supporter of independence but not everything should be connected to it.

[sophia]

When the detail of this is long forgotten, memory will tune into a chord of decisive leadership.

Juxtapose this with everlasting inquiries into no marks such as Jim Dempster and racism.

By comparison, Leonard and Corbyn are failures who are tainted by inaction.

 

[pandarilla]

When the detail of this is long forgotten, memory will tune into a chord of decisive leadership.
Juxtapose this with everlasting inquiries into no marks such as Jim Dempster and racism.
By comparison, Leonard and Corbyn are failures who are tainted by inaction.
 

Do you not think details matter when throwing around accusations of anti semitism?

[sophia]

Just now, pandarilla said:

6 minutes ago, sophia said:

When the detail of this is long forgotten, memory will tune into a chord of decisive leadership.
Juxtapose this with everlasting inquiries into no marks such as Jim Dempster and racism.
By comparison, Leonard and Corbyn are failures who are tainted by inaction.
 

Do you not think details matter when throwing around accusations of anti semitism?

Yes I do.

Do you not think interminable inquiries into racism point to a rotten and unelectable indulgence?

 

[welshbairn]

Quite the story. Had to google the name but it's coming back.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/labour-racism-row-councillor-accused-12228722

[welshbairn]

25 minutes ago, sophia said:

Yes I do.

Do you not think interminable inquiries into racism point to a rotten and unelectable indulgence?

 

I'd suggest that the way the SNP dealt with Neale Hanvey could be put on the conveniently cavalier end of the spectrum.

[sophia]

11 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I'd suggest that the way the SNP dealt with Neale Hanvey could be put on the conveniently cavalier end of the spectrum.

You could but you'd be wrong.

Inaction during an election would have set fire to a narrative that, in the context of our reporting environment, would have derailed the campaign.

I'd bet that Leonard and Corbyn would have referred the matter to an internal party mechanism and the impression of leadership by apparatchiks.

 

[pandarilla]

Yes I do.
Do you not think interminable inquiries into racism point to a rotten and unelectable indulgence?
 

No.

I think it points to a media-led attack which is seemingly never-ending.

The orchestration of this campaign to paint any criticism of Israel as anti - semitic is incredibly orwellian.