What is the point of labour ?

[Theyellowbox]

25 minutes ago, Herc said:

Yeah, these people are exactly what they appear to be. Unpleasant and factional with no aspirations to improve people's lives to any significant degree. The country is in the shitter and they've correctly figured out that all they need to do is offer to be more professional in managing the decline. Cushy board positions with gambling firms, payday loan companies and privatised industries to follow.

The sensibles are back in charge baby. 

I think Labour have the impression that being some kind of low rent Tony Blair with bland centralist policies is going to be a winner, but 97 came off the back of not only a corrupt and broken government, but an already improving economy. Blair at least had some charisma that energised the party and the country as a whole. That feel good factor in itself massively helped boost the economy. New Labour recognised that very early on and made the most of it.

Starmer et al think they have the same, but they just don't and being not as bad and sensible looking vs the alternative isn't going to cut it either.

To get the UK going again is going to need folk to feel good about it and not one senior Labour front bencher has it in them nor are they anywhere near progressive enough.

[Boo Khaki]

If the outcome of the next GE is a hung parliament, then that will be an utterly damning indictment of Starmer's 4-5 years (by that point) time as Labour leader. 

They have every possible environmental factor in their favour. Total disillusionment with the incumbent government, failing economy, COLC, NHS on it's knees. They couldn't wish for more ammunition to pelt the government with. If the Tory vote collapses and they still can't return a majority, then I'm sorry, but they don't deserve to even think about Coalitions.

Why the f**k would the SNP even think about propping up a bunch of utter no-hopers that can't even win an election when given every conceivable advantage?

Rhetorical question, because it's bloody obvious why, but still, it wouldn't sit easy.

Part of me hopes that they just jump into bed with the LibDems, because I find the idea of propping up this shower wholly distasteful, but that doesn't help Scotland any and it would surely end with yet another Tory government in 5 years' time.

Still, I don't understand why the SNP would make noises for years about never supporting Tories, but making an exception for a Starmer Tory Government.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Boo Khaki

[RuMoore]

Last few pages show how many people on here view the GE and Labours success as part of their wider hopes and dreams of Independence. Hence why they're so over the top critical as they know it would be a set back on a vehicle that's not even moving in the first place. 

The mask has been dropped and we can stop pretending to have arguments about policy and austerity and how harmful Labour will be whilst simultaneously advocating for harmful economic outcomes but in an Independent Scotland.

The most realistic positive outcome for normal people in the UK at present is to have a Labour government, you can argue the outcomes would be minimal but anything else is just fantasy birthday card pish or letting off steam on a football forum. 

 

 

[Theyellowbox]

12 minutes ago, RuMoore said:

Last few pages show how many people on here view the GE and Labours success as part of their wider hopes and dreams of Independence. Hence why they're so over the top critical as they know it would be a set back on a vehicle that's not even moving in the first place. 

The mask has been dropped and we can stop pretending to have arguments about policy and austerity and how harmful Labour will be whilst simultaneously advocating for harmful economic outcomes but in an Independent Scotland.

The most realistic positive outcome for normal people in the UK at present is to have a Labour government, you can argue the outcomes would be minimal but anything else is just fantasy birthday card pish or letting off steam on a football forum. 

 

 

Disagree. I think anyone centre or left of centre politically, regardless of view on independence would feel that Labour is no where near progressive.

It would be fine to be a non radical alternative to the current Tory government if the country wasn't in a total shambles, but that is not where we are.

We have failing health care, failing social care, failing economy, failing policing, failing military force, failing imigration policy to name just a few and it is not acceptable for the opposition party, regardless of who they are to have a tact of let's not change much and a change of faces will do.

I'm over simplifying Labour's position above, but nothing I hear from then amounts to anything more than tinkering around the edges.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Theyellowbox

[StellarHibee]

1 hour ago, Boo Khaki said:

Still, I don't understand why the SNP would make noises for years about never supporting Tories, but making an exception for a Starmer Tory Government.

Because they know a Starmer government would never work with the SNP under any circumstance (they've already been quite clear about that). So it allows the SNP to push the message that Scotland is once again being excluded from the UK political system even when they're prepared to play a part in it.

[oneteaminglasgow]

45 minutes ago, RuMoore said:

The mask has been dropped and we can stop pretending to have arguments about policy and austerity and how harmful Labour will be whilst simultaneously advocating for harmful economic outcomes but in an Independent Scotland.

No c**t is arguing for that, and it’s completely disingenuous to suggest they are.

The argument is that Labours stated policy positions are to continue with austerity and to continue inflicting misery on millions of people.

An independent Scotland gives us a chance to do something different, and it seems that it would be far more possible in I-Scotland to achieve that.

Now, you can argue that that’s not realistic or whatever, but that is what people are saying. 

[craigkillie]

18 minutes ago, StellarHibee said:

Because they know a Starmer government would never work with the SNP under any circumstance (they've already been quite clear about that). So it allows the SNP to push the message that Scotland is once again being excluded from the UK political system even when they're prepared to play a part in it.

If Keir Starmer has been clear about something then the chances are he'll also be clear about the exact opposite thing within a month or two.

[StellarHibee]

2 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

If Keir Starmer has been clear about something then the chances are he'll also be clear about the exact opposite thing within a month or two.

He won't work with the SNP under any circumstances. His lobby groups will ensure that he doesn't.

[RuMoore]

7 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

No c**t is arguing for that, and it’s completely disingenuous to suggest they are.

The argument is that Labours stated policy positions are to continue with austerity and to continue inflicting misery on millions of people.

An independent Scotland gives us a chance to do something different, and it seems that it would be far more possible in I-Scotland to achieve that.

Now, you can argue that that’s not realistic or whatever, but that is what people are saying. 

The last few pages have been filled with disingenuous suggestions so forgive me for reading between the lines and then adding one of my own. 

It's abundantly clear that in the event of an Independent Scotland we would need to have some level of austerity imposed on us, that's before we even start to discuss the economic outcomes related to trade and such. 

Just like the economic foreshadowing of Brexit were obvious to anyone capable of rational thinking, i don't support making everyone's lives worse because some people have insecure identity issues. 

 

[Wee-Bey]

The tattered old eyesore of a blue shed at the bottom of my garden is falling to bits. I'm going to paint it a nice shiny red, which will please the wife and neighbours.

Dunno how they'll feel later when it's obvious that the shed is still falling to bits, but that's not my problem. It's red now baby. Things can only get better.

 

[RuMoore]

Just now, Herc said:

The tattered old eyesore of a blue shed at the bottom of my garden is falling to bits. I'm going to paint it a nice shiny red, which will please the wife and neighbours.

Dunno how they'll feel later when it's obvious that the shed is still falling to bits, but that's not my problem. It's red now baby. Things can only get better.

 

You could always just demolish the shed and try and build one with twigs and saliva and whack a flag on top of it. 

[StellarHibee]

Just now, RuMoore said:

You could always just demolish the shed and try and build one with twigs and saliva and whack a flag on top of it. 

Or you could just demolish the shed and build a better one that the previous shed prevented you from doing.

[Wee-Bey]

2 minutes ago, RuMoore said:

You could always just demolish the shed and try and build one with twigs and saliva and whack a flag on top of it. 

I did pass my Outdoors badge in the Cubs with flying colours tbf.

[RuMoore]

3 minutes ago, StellarHibee said:

Or you could just demolish the shed and build a better one that the previous shed prevented you from doing.

You ruined the patter train. 

[StellarHibee]

2 minutes ago, RuMoore said:

You ruined the patter train. 

And here was me thinking your "patter" was just shite.

[RuMoore]

3 minutes ago, StellarHibee said:

And here was me thinking your "patter" was just shite.

 

[Wee-Bey]

2 minutes ago, RuMoore said:

You ruined the patter train. 

You can't expect everyone to swallow the bait.

I can completely understand why there's people out there enthused for a stomping Labour victory, the tories are fucking gangsters. I just can't get enthused about some middle management types with nice suits and haircuts promising not to change anything, but at least being a bit more polite about it and not so openly corrupt.

The best option is a hung parliament which could gives us an outside chance of positive reforms.

[oneteaminglasgow]

31 minutes ago, RuMoore said:

It's abundantly clear that in the event of an Independent Scotland we would need to have some level of austerity imposed on us, that's before we even start to discuss the economic outcomes related to trade and such. 

No, it isn’t.

And even if it is, would it be more or less austerity than we currently have imposed on us, and which the Labour Party are promising to continue imposing? 

[coprolite]

2 hours ago, welshbairn said:

They got close in 2017, if their campaign hadn't been undermined internally by the right, they might have crossed the line. That and having a clear Brexit strategy.

The internal undermining was in part a consequence of shit leadership though. 

2 hours ago, Theyellowbox said:

I think Labour have the impression that being some kind of low rent Tony Blair with bland centralist policies is going to be a winner, but 97 came off the back of not only a corrupt and broken government, but an already improving economy. Blair at least had some charisma that energised the party and the country as a whole. That feel good factor in itself massively helped boost the economy. New Labour recognised that very early on and made the most of it.

Starmer et al think they have the same, but they just don't and being not as bad and sensible looking vs the alternative isn't going to cut it either.

To get the UK going again is going to need folk to feel good about it and not one senior Labour front bencher has it in them nor are they anywhere near progressive enough.

Blair had a coherent philosophy (the third way) that was a convincing narrative to bridge left and right in the party and the country. Starmer has just binned the bits that appealed to the left.

1 hour ago, RuMoore said:

Last few pages show how many people on here view the GE and Labours success as part of their wider hopes and dreams of Independence. Hence why they're so over the top critical as they know it would be a set back on a vehicle that's not even moving in the first place. 

The mask has been dropped and we can stop pretending to have arguments about policy and austerity and how harmful Labour will be whilst simultaneously advocating for harmful economic outcomes but in an Independent Scotland.

The most realistic positive outcome for normal people in the UK at present is to have a Labour government, you can argue the outcomes would be minimal but anything else is just fantasy birthday card pish or letting off steam on a football forum. 

 

 

Just because shite with sweetcorn in it tastes better than plain shite, doesn’t mean I want to eat it.

[craigkillie]

35 minutes ago, StellarHibee said:

He won't work with the SNP under any circumstances. His lobby groups will ensure that he doesn't.

If we've learned anything from the last few years, it's that he will say or do literally anything that helps him to become Prime Minister. A bit like Johnson in that respect.