10 Years Ago

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, GallowayBlue said:

Why do they need to get more people to support it?

Why is it not enough for the Scottish Parliament to be pro-independence referendum?

The UK isn't run by opinion polling.

Be careful what you wish for.

If the Scottish Parliament were given the power to call referendums on independence then the SNP would be under immense pressure from its own members to hold one quickly. Which would almost certainly be lost. Then what?

Independence supporters have spent too much effort campaigning for another referendum, arguing about strategy and holding marches, and not enough time trying to move the opinions of current No supporters. And when they do, they use the arguments that appeal to themselves, not to the other side.

Edited 3 hours ago by GordonS

[GallowayBlue]

1 minute ago, houston_bud said:

Yes, I know. 

You or me, or anyone else, wishing that the Scottish Parliament could make these decisions changes nothing. What will bring about another referendum is when public support has grown to a level that's difficult to ignore for whoever is in power in Westminster. That hasn't happened in the last ten years as support has barely shifted.

I just don't think we need to move the goalposts or create extra obstacles.

Adding bits about level of support required when there's precedent for a referendum when Scot Gov requests it.

Even then, it is ultimately on the whim of a few individuals. 

I do think part of the SNP strategy should be about trying to working with the UK Gov to define the goalposts, with both sides ceding a little.

[GallowayBlue]

5 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Be careful what you wish for.

If the Scottish Parliament were given the power to call referendums on independence then the SNP would be under immense pressure from its own members to hold one quickly. Which was almost certainly be lost. Then what?

Independence supporters have spent too much effort campaigning for another referendum, arguing about strategy and holding marches, and not enough time trying to move the opinions of current No supporters. And when they do, they use the arguments that appeal to themselves, not to the other side.

Yes but I believe in democracy and in Scotland's right to choose whether to remain in a union or not.

If people can't manage that responsibility or vote in a way I don't like then that's okay by me - it doesn't mean we should then just ignore their verdict or not give people a choice.

The potential conclusion of this line of thinking is a lack of confidence in the ability of the people that live in Scotland to make decisions.

Edited 5 hours ago by GallowayBlue

[GordonS]

6 minutes ago, houston_bud said:

Yes, I know. 

You or me, or anyone else, wishing that the Scottish Parliament could make these decisions changes nothing. What will bring about another referendum is when public support has grown to a level that's difficult to ignore for whoever is in power in Westminster. That hasn't happened in the last ten years as support has barely shifted.

There's an extent to which that's true, but it's also the case that a large majority support rejoining the EU and yet not one of the main UK parties support it or had it in their manifestos. The cost of denying the people want they want is lower than the electoral cost of giving it to them. And that's on a UK issue; support for independence would have to be off the charts before the pressure would have any meaningful impact.

I wouldn't underestimate the extent to which the last referendum only happened because the UK prime minister was a risk-taker who thought he would win. 

[houston_bud]

3 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Independence supporters have spent too much effort campaigning for another referendum, arguing about strategy and holding marches, and not enough time trying to move the opinions of current No supporters. And when they do, they use the arguments that appeal to themselves, not to the other side.

My feelings exactly. I saw a post on Facebook earlier in the week from the SNP candidate for Falkirk (at the last election). It was a pretty long winded post about how wonderful the referendum campaign was and how they'd only been beaten by project fear.

I scrolled through his page and there was absolutely zero about Grangemouth.  That summed up a lot of the SNP for me.

Just now, GallowayBlue said:

I do think part of the SNP strategy should be about trying to working with the UK Gov to define the goalposts, with both sides ceding a little.

Always been a gripe of mine that it wasnt laid out, how to get to another referendum. Both sides now argue that there is/isn't a mandate, both can make a case for their point of view and we're at an impasse. 

[GordonS]

2 minutes ago, GallowayBlue said:

Yes but I believe in democracy and in Scotland's right to choose whether to remain in a union or not.

If people can't manage that responsibility or vote in a way I don't like then that's okay by me - it doesn't mean we should then just ignore their verdict or not give people a choice.

The potential conclusion of this line of thinking is a lack of confidence in the ability of the people that live in Scotland to make decisions.

And that's how the right usually wins.

[GallowayBlue]

5 minutes ago, houston_bud said:

My feelings exactly. I saw a post on Facebook earlier in the week from the SNP candidate for Falkirk (at the last election). It was a pretty long winded post about how wonderful the referendum campaign was and how they'd only been beaten by project fear.

I scrolled through his page and there was absolutely zero about Grangemouth.  That summed up a lot of the SNP for me.

Always been a gripe of mine that it wasnt laid out, how to get to another referendum. Both sides now argue that there is/isn't a mandate, both can make a case for their point of view and we're at an impasse. 

Absolutely, obviously more thought would need to be given and I suppose the SNP and people like me say we should be able to vote when Scotland want.

However, set out something like:

1. Maximum of one vote every 15 years

2. Majority of votes in Scottish Parliament election

I don't believe that should be the approach but at least both sides would know what they're working with/towards and have a route rather than potentially blocking the will of voters in Scotland.

Edited 5 hours ago by GallowayBlue

[GallowayBlue]

2 minutes ago, GordonS said:

And that's how the right usually wins.

I just don't think a lack of trust in voters is a good enough reason to have a less democratic system.

For better or worse, it should be Scotland's choice in the same way that leaving the EU was the UK's choice.

I understand the legal position is not the same, but there's a point of principle which the majority of Scots (58%) agree with.

[GordonS]

7 minutes ago, houston_bud said:

My feelings exactly. I saw a post on Facebook earlier in the week from the SNP candidate for Falkirk (at the last election). It was a pretty long winded post about how wonderful the referendum campaign was and how they'd only been beaten by project fear.

I scrolled through his page and there was absolutely zero about Grangemouth.  That summed up a lot of the SNP for me.

That guy is a great example of how not just the SNP, but all political parties eventually lose their way in power.

[Wee-Bey]

On 30/08/2019 at 17:29, Cheese said:

A generation is 5 years, as this was the length of time it took Sir Reginald Generation, after which it is named, to come up with the concept back in 1879.

 

[Alan Twelve]

2 hours ago, Lex said:

Genuinely surprised I’m having to provide this. That’s the post truth internet world we live in I guess. It was said by them all several times. 

 

They've also both said many times that Scotland should be independent of the UK, so presumably you take that as gospel too?

You're just demonstrating that Scottish unionism is a fundamentally unserious thing. You, and everyone who presents all their tired zombie arguments (currency, pensions, mortgages, etc.) know that you're parroting complete pish, it's just more important that you "win" the argument than that you actually examine what it is you're arguing for.

[Mastermind]

5 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

I love the enthusiasm but its f**ked for decades. A nation of shitebags.

I genuinely can’t imagine how it must be for the Nats waking up every day for 10 years absolutely fuming with those around them for not agreeing with their minority view, with blood boiling at not getting their way. 10 years! It’s delicious. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

1 hour ago, Mastermind said:

I genuinely can’t imagine how it must be for the Nats waking up every day for 10 years absolutely fuming with those around them for not agreeing with their minority view, with blood boiling at not getting their way. 10 years! It’s delicious. 

It's a rich back catalogue, but this must rank as one of the most juvenile posts ever to appear on P & B.  

[Wee-Bey]

The most ironically named poster on the forum is back baby.

[Big Rider]

Mintermind returns. 

The saddest of sacks.

[Freedom Farter]

3 hours ago, GordonS said:

Be careful what you wish for.

If the Scottish Parliament were given the power to call referendums on independence then the SNP would be under immense pressure from its own members to hold one quickly. Which would almost certainly be lost. Then what?

Independence supporters have spent too much effort campaigning for another referendum, arguing about strategy and holding marches, and not enough time trying to move the opinions of current No supporters. And when they do, they use the arguments that appeal to themselves, not to the other side.

Jim Sillars said something along these lines a while back and I agreed with him. Although he donated to Jackie Bailie at the next election which didn't help make his point (there's Scottish Labour figures I admire, Baillie isn't one of them).

[Hammer Jag]

My abiding memory of 2014 is the humiliation I felt when I visited Ireland and Croatia in the months following the referendum. Trying to explain the servility and cowardice of the Scottish electorate to people in countries where their people shed blood for their independence

All we had to do was tick a box. 

Edited 28 minutes ago by Hammer Jag