Qo'S vs' D'umbarton

[Skyline Drifter]

32 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

Surprised they never showed the Dumbarton penalty call. At the time I thought he was clearly offside but I thought McIntosh was clearly on and he was probably just off, so what do I know.

Yeah, I'd have liked to have seen the Dumbarton penalty claim again. It's a much more pivotal incident than the red card at the end of the day. Whether that was wrong or right the game was done by then. I thought it looked a penalty at the time.

The red card is tighter than I thought. It's one of those where they are almost in line and he darts back to an onside position before running forward but it's in the timing of the pass. I've taken a photo of my screen at point of release which I'll post in a minute but there can't be more than a cm or two in it either way. It's neither clearly wrong nor clearly right.

Edited Monday at 11:06 by Skyline Drifter

[Skyline Drifter]

Just now, Skyline Drifter said:

The red card is tighter than I thought. It's one of those where they are almost in line and he darts back to an onside position before running forward but it's in the timing of the pass. I've taken a photo of my screen at point of release which I'll post in a minute but there can be more than a cm or two in it either way. It's neither clearly wrong nor clearly right.

 

[Skyline Drifter]

Rubbish photo as I took it of a desktop screen using a camera phone, and the angle of the photo exaggerates McIntosh's position, but there's a white line in the pitch going across it right where they are and it looks like McIntosh's back foot is on it and Durnan's standing further away from it by an inch or two but leaning backwards. I don't think it's possible to be definitive on that, other than to say it's very, very close.

[Jan Vojáček]

1 minute ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Yeah, I'd have liked to have seen the Dumbarton penalty claim again. It's a much more pivotal incident than the red card at the end of the day. Whether that was wrong or right the game was done by then. I thought it looked a penalty at the time.

The red card is tighter than I thought. It's one of those where they are almost in line and he darts back to an onside position before running forward but it's in the timing of the pass. I've taken a photo of my screen at point of release which I'll post in a minute but there can be more than a cm or two in it either way. It's neither clearly wrong nor clearly right.

Totally agree on both parts here. The away end being at the total opposite end to the penalty call made it impossible to know if the defender got a nick on the ball (and I think Finlay took one touch too many and should've just got a shot away) but it would've been a massive moment.

I've no complaints at all about the red card. He might be offside, but we shouldn't be playing an offside trap with a stand-in linesman. That's daft. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way to the guy who took over either; it's totally on us. And especially on Durnan as our captain and most experienced player. Even when McIntosh gets the ball on the wrong-side of Durnan it's not like it's a stick on goal. Durnan's trip is just pure petulance and frustration, and now rules him out of a really big game next week. His head went and I've no doubt he was sitting on the bus home kicking himself.

Anyway, seen as I'm now mainly recovered from a touch and go bout of man flu, that game had me a bit worried. Mainly because if you aren't scoring with 35 shots (and are barely troubling the goalkeeper) then you're in trouble.

Queens totally bossed the game for the first 20 minutes. They looked like the best side we'd played this season. Not in terms of being dominant and peppering the goal. But just in terms of looking like a really solid, well organised unit. A good team.

Who knows what happened after that, because things totally switched before half-time. We dominated the final 25 minutes of the half and, as the highlights show, should've taken at least one chance to be level at half-time. We're just so wasteful in the final third. Every cross is either weak or overhit. Every shot is either a passback or a goal kick. Ross Stewart (who really impressed me dealing with high balls) didn't have a save of note to make.

Just as in the first-half, we started the second-half really poorly. The goal we lost is a neat move; but you've got to question why a move started in Queens left-back position was finished 12 yards out by their right-back. They absolutely played through us, and it was all simple passes and moving the ball sensibly. Not like our tendancy to work into a good position and try a pass that Xavi Hernandez would struggle with on a good day.

We had a few chances after that, but Queens look like a side who know how to win games from that position. And I didn't feel like we were ever getting back into it. They managed the game well. Looked good on the break and (again) for all our play, Ross Stewart didn't really have a save to make.

I wonder if it might be a bit back to the drawing board now for Faz. We've played well to start the season, but the script is becoming a bit tired. And a refresh is maybe needed. Just to try something new. I enjoy watching us, but if we shitfest a 1-0 win against Stenny last week in the exact style Montrose did against us then I'll be delighted.

Durnan being out likely means Miller will come back in at centre-half. But I'd be tempted to go a bit more radical. Could we try Sena at centre-half where he was decent for Thistle a few years ago and move Mikey Miller into midfield? That's historically been his best position and he's a good footballer. Maybe stick Aron Lynas beyond Carlo Pignatiello to get him further forward (one of our players who actually has the skill to create a chance and the composure to turn the chance into a goal or assist) whilst also giving us a bit more defensive solidity. Because 0 clean sheets in league games and 1 in all competitions isn't really cutting it.

Who knows. I'm expecting a bit of a shakeup this weekend, and one thing is clear. If we lose to Stenny we're in pretty big bother. If we get a win, then things looked a fair bit cheerier.

[Jan Vojáček]

Btw, what a cracking catch from the Queen's fan from Orsi's wayward first-half shot  Just plucks the ball out the air and holds it. Safe hands.

[19QOS19]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

Aye it's a close one. I was right in line at the time and as I say, thought McIntosh was just on. It's closer than I remember though. 

FWIW, I thought Durnan and Wallace's reaction towards a stand in linesman was OTT. I know football is an emotional game but ffs a guy from the stand prevented the game from being postponed. He's long since retired so I doubt he was ever going to be able to be bang in line every time. 

[Boghead ranter]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

Should've been flagged for doing Agadoo mid game.

[Skyline Drifter]

40 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

Aye it's a close one. I was right in line at the time and as I say, thought McIntosh was just on. It's closer than I remember though. 

FWIW, I thought Durnan and Wallace's reaction towards a stand in linesman was OTT. I know football is an emotional game but ffs a guy from the stand prevented the game from being postponed. He's long since retired so I doubt he was ever going to be able to be bang in line every time. 

He's not actually retired. If he was retired I'm not sure they'd have let him do it. He has dropped to youth levels now but he's still actively refereeing. He did one of my son's games last season. And in all honesty I didn't see him once look like he wasn't up with play.

I'm still not entirely clear on why the Referee Observer sitting in the Stand (Kevin Graham who last refereed at SPFL level in 2021) couldn't have done it. They said he couldn't but it would have made far more sense for him to do it.

Durnan's reaction was that of a man who knew he'd made a backside of it and was looking for someone else to blame. As @Jan Vojáček said earlier, he's got no good reason to be stepping up there anyway. Just defend it properly and it's not a problem.

[84yards]

5 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

 

 

Surprised they never showed the Dumbarton penalty call. At the time I thought he was clearly offside but I thought McIntosh was clearly on and he was probably just off, so what do I know. 

Our second goal was even better than I remembered and probably better than the first. It all started from our own penalty box - who'd have thought it?! A lot of good chances created and every one was down to our passing and not "hoofing it". As I said, maybe we should trust our players ability rather than boo them? 

Hopefully continue to build on this next week. 

 

 

RE the pen call: I'm pretty sure the Dumbarton player was in his own half 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

On 30/09/2024 at 12:05, Jan Vojáček said:

Totally agree on both parts here. The away end being at the total opposite end to the penalty call made it impossible to know if the defender got a nick on the ball (and I think Finlay took one touch too many and should've just got a shot away) but it would've been a massive moment.

I've no complaints at all about the red card. He might be offside, but we shouldn't be playing an offside trap with a stand-in linesman. That's daft. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way to the guy who took over either; it's totally on us. And especially on Durnan as our captain and most experienced player. Even when McIntosh gets the ball on the wrong-side of Durnan it's not like it's a stick on goal. Durnan's trip is just pure petulance and frustration, and now rules him out of a really big game next week. His head went and I've no doubt he was sitting on the bus home kicking himself.

Anyway, seen as I'm now mainly recovered from a touch and go bout of man flu, that game had me a bit worried. Mainly because if you aren't scoring with 35 shots (and are barely troubling the goalkeeper) then you're in trouble.

Queens totally bossed the game for the first 20 minutes. They looked like the best side we'd played this season. Not in terms of being dominant and peppering the goal. But just in terms of looking like a really solid, well organised unit. A good team.

Who knows what happened after that, because things totally switched before half-time. We dominated the final 25 minutes of the half and, as the highlights show, should've taken at least one chance to be level at half-time. We're just so wasteful in the final third. Every cross is either weak or overhit. Every shot is either a passback or a goal kick. Ross Stewart (who really impressed me dealing with high balls) didn't have a save of note to make.

Just as in the first-half, we started the second-half really poorly. The goal we lost is a neat move; but you've got to question why a move started in Queens left-back position was finished 12 yards out by their right-back. They absolutely played through us, and it was all simple passes and moving the ball sensibly. Not like our tendancy to work into a good position and try a pass that Xavi Hernandez would struggle with on a good day.

We had a few chances after that, but Queens look like a side who know how to win games from that position. And I didn't feel like we were ever getting back into it. They managed the game well. Looked good on the break and (again) for all our play, Ross Stewart didn't really have a save to make.

I wonder if it might be a bit back to the drawing board now for Faz. We've played well to start the season, but the script is becoming a bit tired. And a refresh is maybe needed. Just to try something new. I enjoy watching us, but if we shitfest a 1-0 win against Stenny last week in the exact style Montrose did against us then I'll be delighted.

Durnan being out likely means Miller will come back in at centre-half. But I'd be tempted to go a bit more radical. Could we try Sena at centre-half where he was decent for Thistle a few years ago and move Mikey Miller into midfield? That's historically been his best position and he's a good footballer. Maybe stick Aron Lynas beyond Carlo Pignatiello to get him further forward (one of our players who actually has the skill to create a chance and the composure to turn the chance into a goal or assist) whilst also giving us a bit more defensive solidity. Because 0 clean sheets in league games and 1 in all competitions isn't really cutting it.

Who knows. I'm expecting a bit of a shakeup this weekend, and one thing is clear. If we lose to Stenny we're in pretty big bother. If we get a win, then things looked a fair bit cheerier.

I'm liking that penultimate paragraph Jan, but I fear it's several degrees too radical for Faz.

[squeezebox-son]

57 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

I'm liking that penultimate paragraph Jan, but I fear it's several degrees too radical for Faz.

It's a fair point, and didn't we play Carlo further forward on the pitch for much of pre-season? I'm sure he chipped in with a fair amount of goals, too.

We do need to shuffle things, but, hopefully not so much that we see what we've seen the last couple of weeks. When we have made subs in the last couple of games, we have looked all over the place in a mad panic to get back into things and it has been clear that all the subs have significantly weakened us.

That is, primarily, down to the manager though and I fear that having kept hold of players like Lynas, Blair and Wilson... we haven't got anywhere near enough quality in the depth of our squad.

[NilNil]

Having now seen the highlights, I might as well give my thoughts on the talking points.  Albeit it’s conspicuous in it’s absence that probably the most controversial one (our penalty claim) isn’t covered.

Durnan’s sending off is 100% one.  He’s brought the guy down when he’s been caught wrong side.  I do however think he has every right to have a go at the stand in assistant.  The striker is offside when the ball is played and he got that badly wrong.  Not that I think the outcome of the game would’ve been different had that particular incident played out differently, it does however stick in the throat that we lose our captain for next week.  As has been said already though, why is our slowest defender trying to play offside there?

QOS goals were both well taken but from a defensive point of view, poor to concede.  I’d definitely be in favour of more than just the one enforced change for Saturday.

I do find it odd how much slack the stand in linesperson is being given. I very much doubt he’d have been afforded the same if a big mistake had cost Queens a goal/potential equaliser or whatever…

Thankfully it doesn’t present itself often but having a stand in who’s not fit for the job and affecting games adversely as a result isn’t the gold standard but nobody will really care at our level.  Imagine if it was one of Scotland’s shame involved…

[19QOS19]

2 minutes ago, NilNil said:

I do find it odd how much slack the stand in linesperson is being given. I very much doubt he’d have been afforded the same if a big mistake had cost Queens a goal/potential equaliser or whatever…

Thankfully it doesn’t present itself often but having a stand in who’s not fit for the job and affecting games adversely as a result isn’t the gold standard but nobody will really care at our level.  Imagine if it was one of Scotland’s shame involved…

It was a tight decision that he maybe got wrong. It was hardly a blatantly obvious mistake so I think it's fair to give the guy a break tbh. The one who's made an arse of it is Durnan. As I've said, he should have trusted McIntosh to f**k it up again rather than clip him and get sent off. 

[NilNil]

1 minute ago, 19QOS19 said:

It was a tight decision that he maybe got wrong. It was hardly a blatantly obvious mistake so I think it's fair to give the guy a break tbh. The one who's made an arse of it is Durnan. As I've said, he should have trusted McIntosh to f**k it up again rather than clip him and get sent off. 

It was a tight decision but it’s what he’s there for.  He got it wrong. It just begs the question if he’s up to the task in such circumstances.  As for physically…, let’s not go there.

But yes, I agree, Durnan has made a mess of it, let the guy go and ease him wider, as has been said, it’s hardly a gilt-edged opportunity.

[HighlandQueen]

7 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

It was a tight decision that he maybe got wrong. It was hardly a blatantly obvious mistake so I think it's fair to give the guy a break tbh. The one who's made an arse of it is Durnan. As I've said, he should have trusted McIntosh to f**k it up again rather than clip him and get sent off. 

I agree. Unnecessary criticism of Bob Park, without whom the game would have been postponed. Knife edge decision. And for what it’s worth I thought McIntosh was on and Durban too slow and caught out. The Dumbarton players reaction was petty and out of order borne probably from their frustration at shooting themselves in the foot. 

[19QOS19]

12 minutes ago, NilNil said:

It was a tight decision but it’s what he’s there for.  He got it wrong. It just begs the question if he’s up to the task in such circumstances.  As for physically…, let’s not go there.

But yes, I agree, Durnan has made a mess of it, let the guy go and ease him wider, as has been said, it’s hardly a gilt-edged opportunity.

I'd rather the game was played tbh. He wasn't supposed to be there, he's there to stop a game being postponed meaning fans not having to pay for another journey, Dumbarton players not having to travel midweek (after a day's work, likely), Queens not having to fork out for another game. He got one very tight decision wrong (in a game where it looked like QoS were going to get another regardless). I think it was worth the alternative personally so can cut him some slack. 

[NilNil]

12 minutes ago, HighlandQueen said:

I agree. Unnecessary criticism of Bob Park, without whom the game would have been postponed. Knife edge decision. And for what it’s worth I thought McIntosh was on and Durban too slow and caught out. The Dumbarton players reaction was petty and out of order borne probably from their frustration at shooting themselves in the foot. 

I don’t think it’s unnecessary, I think it’s reasonable.  He’s got a big decision wrong. Hey, proper officials do too. But is someone who officiates at whatever level fit to step in?  Either in terms of being up to the task at L1 level or the demands physically of it.  Certainly questionable at the very least.

Just now, 19QOS19 said:

I'd rather the game was played tbh. He wasn't supposed to be there, he's there to stop a game being postponed meaning fans not having to pay for another journey, Dumbarton players not having to travel midweek (after a day's work, likely), Queens not having to fork out for another game. He got one very tight decision wrong (in a game where it looked like QoS were going to get another regardless). I think it was worth the alternative personally so can cut him some slack. 

I’m not suggesting the alternative is better.  I appreciate all of the aspects mentioned in the game having to be replayed.  I’m not saying that’s the better option.  It’s not the only one.  Could a referee’s supervisor not be required to be fit and able enough to step in?

It’s a difficult situation all round but I’m not sure a stand in who (and I’m guessing here) hasn’t officiated in a while, and it has to be asked if they’re physically capable too, is the best or only option in the circumstances that presented themselves on Saturday.  It’s all conjecture I appreciate but I also genuinely don’t think there’d be the same slack being given had he made a similar gaff that had affected Queens adversely and facilitated us leaving with a point, for example.

It’s done though and I don’t think his involvement affected the outcome thankfully albeit it’s contributed to it.  If it had directly affected the outcome then it might well have been a different story.

[19QOS19]

4 minutes ago, NilNil said:

I don’t think it’s unnecessary, I think it’s reasonable.  He’s got a big decision wrong. Hey, proper officials do too. But is someone who officiates at whatever level fit to step in?  Either in terms of being up to the task at L1 level or the demands physically of it.  Certainly questionable at the very least.

I’m not suggesting the alternative is better.  I appreciate all of the aspects mentioned in the game having to be replayed.  I’m not saying that’s the better option.  It’s not the only one.  Could a referee’s supervisor not be required to be fit and able enough to step in?

It’s a difficult situation all round but I’m not sure a stand in who (and I’m guessing here) hasn’t officiated in a while, and it has to be asked if they’re physically capable too, is the best or only option in the circumstances that presented themselves on Saturday.  It’s all conjecture I appreciate but I also genuinely don’t think there’d be the same slack being given had he made a similar gaff that had affected Queens adversely and facilitated us leaving with a point, for example.

It’s done though and I don’t think his involvement affected the outcome thankfully albeit it’s contributed to it.  If it had directly affected the outcome then it might well have been a different story.

As I say, I'd be inclined to see your point more had it been an awful decision. It was very tight. If it wasn't a stand in official I doubt the 'official' linesman's performance would receive the same scrutiny tbh. 

[NilNil]

Just now, 19QOS19 said:

As I say, I'd be inclined to see your point more had it been an awful decision. It was very tight. If it wasn't a stand in official I doubt the 'official' linesman's performance would receive the same scrutiny tbh. 

Yeah that’s a fair point. It’s a wrong decision but yeah, he’s not off by a country mile.

My issue is that at least the ‘official’ linesperson has been ratified to officiate at that level and passed whatever requirements are required of them.

[Skyline Drifter]

58 minutes ago, NilNil said:

Durnan’s sending off is 100% one.  He’s brought the guy down when he’s been caught wrong side.  I do however think he has every right to have a go at the stand in assistant.  The striker is offside when the ball is played and he got that badly wrong.  Not that I think the outcome of the game would’ve been different had that particular incident played out differently, it does however stick in the throat that we lose our captain for next week.  As has been said already though, why is our slowest defender trying to play offside there?

I do find it odd how much slack the stand in linesperson is being given. I very much doubt he’d have been afforded the same if a big mistake had cost Queens a goal/potential equaliser or whatever…

Thankfully it doesn’t present itself often but having a stand in who’s not fit for the job and affecting games adversely as a result isn’t the gold standard but nobody will really care at our level.  Imagine if it was one of Scotland’s shame involved…

Would you like your sour grapes peeled for you?

I've watched that red card offside decision a dozen times, I slowed it down, I did frame advance.  It's tight. It's really, really tight, and off that camera angle I don't think it's possible to be definitive about whether he got it right or wrong. It IS however possible to be absolutely clear that if he got it wrong it's by a fraction. He's not got anything "badly wrong" and your definitive statement that McIntosh is offside is far from certain. Mark Durnan has nobody to blame for his red card except Mark Durnan. That could have been called either way whatever linesman was there and pointing at a "stand in linesman" as he did and you're doing now is just deflection.

The guy involved was up with play the whole game. You're going on like he was 5 yards out of line with things.

It wouldn't have happened in the Premiership because they always have a 4th official. I will however repeat what I said on Saturday. Given Kevin Graham was there as a referee observer and he retired as a Grade 1 ref three years ago, I don't understand why he didn't take over rather than pulling an older referee from the crowd and giving people the opportunity to point at it.

Edited 2 hours ago by Skyline Drifter