vikingTON Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 30 minutes ago, Moomintroll said: As usual, it will be innocent people on both sides who will suffer because of this neverending shite Innocent people on both sides are suffering because of the Ukraine-Russia conflict (as opposed to perpetrators of the conflict like Putin - who really are not), yet for some reason it has been viewed as appropriate to punch the air in celebration at the 'successes' of that war. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, ScotiaNostra said: No argument there but Hamas treat their own people like shite, women especially. Even if Palestine happened tomorrow, under Hamas women and anyone with different views LGBT for example wont be free. Thats on top of the fact that whenever a 2 state solution is closer than normal either Hamas or right wing israelis feck it up. Palestinians deserve far better. Hamas is a highly objectionable organisation for many reasons, but applying a values system that is really not accepted by the population Hamas claims to represent is not solid grounds to criticise them. It's really not the job of the international community to assert equality of every individual in every single state - there are enough, much bigger problems that we are failing to deal with. Hamas is to a significant degree a militant response to the state of siege that has been imposed on Gaza. It has been a reinforcing cycle for nearly 20 years - between crackdowns against militant threats to the state of Israel (evidently real enough) and the harms those crackdowns cause driving Palestinians of Gaza towards Hamas militancy. Throw in the mutually exclusive claims to territory and it looks impossible to solve peacefully. We should still try every possible route to do so but ultimately brute force is likely to impose a settlement. Edited October 7, 2023 by vikingTON 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScotiaNostra Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Just now, virginton said: Hamas is a highly objectionable organisation for many reasons but applying a values system that is really not accepted by the population Hamas claims to represent is not solid grounds to criticise them. It's really not the job of the international community to assert equality in every single state - there are enough, much bigger problems that we are failing to deal with. Hamas is to a significant degree a militant response to the state of siege that has been imposed on Gaza. It has been a reinforcing cycle for nearly 20 years between crackdowns against militant threats to the state of Israel (evidently real enough) and the harms those crackdowns cause driving the Palestinians of Gaza towards Hamas militant movement. Throw in the mutually exclusive claims to territory and it's impossible to solve peacefully. We should still try to do so but ultimately brute force is likely to impose a settlement. again no argument there but hamas wont be involved or be a part of any solution, they wont speed it up 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 6 minutes ago, ScotiaNostra said: again no argument there but hamas wont be involved or be a part of any solution, they wont speed it up But from the Palestinian (esp. Gaza) perspective, the alternative set forward by Fatah has reached an obvious dead end - caused in part by the intransigence of Israel and the establishment of colonial settlements. There is no logical reason for those people to abandon Hamas for a more peaceful path because no meaningful incentives have or will likely ever be provided to do so. That's why it's an insoluble issue and why Hamas are as much the product of that reality as the makers of it. That doesn't absolve them of individual or collective responsibility but it does explain why they remain a relevant and powerful force. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScotiaNostra Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 1 minute ago, virginton said: But from the Palestinian (esp. Gaza) perspective, the alternative set forward by Fatah has reached an obvious dead end - caused in part by the intransigence of Israel and the establishment of colonial settlements. There is no logical reason for those people to abandon Hamas for a more peaceful path because no meaningful incentives have or will likely ever be provided to do so. That's why it's an insoluble issue and why Hamas are as much the product of that reality as the makers of it. That doesn't absolve them of individual or collective responsibility but it does explain why they remain a relevant and powerful force. yeah I understand that but that still deosnt take away the fact that everything they are doing, pushes what they want further away 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Latest number of Israeli casualties is 250, the number expected to go up further. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 4 minutes ago, ScotiaNostra said: yeah I understand that but that still deosnt take away the fact that everything they are doing, pushes what they want further away I wouldn't put chief responsibility on not achieving a sovereign Palestinian state on Hamas though. It's an act of desperation that (who knows? War is a gamble not a certainty) might swing things in their favour. Alternatively, it might upset or completely overturn the increasingly settled status of Israel in the neighborhood. Even an Israeli counter-offensive will have to tread a fine line. I don't condone the attacks for one moment but it's hard to find a logical, alternative strategy from the point of view of the perpetrators - militant, armed nationalists. They could be making flower baskets for inter-community harmony and their goal would continue to recede into the distance regardless. It's as old a dilemma as political states have existed. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 49 minutes ago, ICTChris said: There are conflicting reports that Hamas captured the head of the IDF Gaza division. The impact of these hostages could be to curtail Israel’s response. A unity government is being formed in Israel as a response to the attack. Israel will try to get the hostages out, but I doubt if it'll be by concession or negotiation or even involve many of them surviving. There'll be a lot of bombs and shooting and significantly fewer Palestinians than there are now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScotiaNostra Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 1 minute ago, virginton said: I wouldn't put chief responsibility on not achieving a sovereign Palestinian state on Hamas though. It's an act of desperation that (who knows? War is a gamble not a certainty) might swing things in their favour. Alternatively, it might upset or completely overturn the increasingly settled status of Israel in the neighborhood. Even an Israeli counter-offensive will have to tread a fine line. I don't condone the attacks for one moment but it's hard to find a logical, alternative strategy from the point of view of the perpetrators - militant, armed nationalists. They could be making flower baskets for inter-community harmony and their goal would continue to recede into the distance regardless. It's as old a dilemma as political states have existed. yeah its an impossible situation. My guess is Israel will over the next year will slowly destroy most of Hamas with ofcourse large civilian casualties, once thats done they might say they will enter talks but ofcourse the Palestinians most likely wont after receiving that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScotiaNostra Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said: Israel will try to get the hostages out, but I doubt if it'll be by concession or negotiation or even involve many of them surviving. There'll be a lot of bombs and shooting and significantly fewer Palestinians than there are now. yeah I think thats whats coming 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermik Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Ssh, you can’t express opinions like that on here! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Over the coming weeks as this plays out we will undoubtedly witness the extreme bias of the MSM some of which will be subtle or unconscious to many. Israeli combatants will be described as ‘soldiers’ whilst Palestinians as ‘militants’ without any recognition of oppressive role the IDF is tasked with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefybake Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 1 hour ago, supermik said: Ssh, you can’t express opinions like that on here! Why not. It's succinctly truthful. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermik Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 16 minutes ago, beefybake said: Why not. It's succinctly truthful. You know that, I know that, but, it goes against the right on narrative of the ruling classes on here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 7 minutes ago, supermik said: You know that, I know that, but, it goes against the right on narrative of the ruling classes on here. Your claim that the ruling classes have got nothing better to do with their time than regulating behaviour on a Scottish football forum is, to put it bluntly, utterly fucking demented. You really want to look back over that absolute nick of a post before you do a full Neil Oliver, start frothing at the mouth and probably saw down some ULEZ cameras too. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loonytoons Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 13 minutes ago, virginton said: Your claim that the ruling classes have got nothing better to do with their time than regulating behaviour on a Scottish football forum is, to put it bluntly, utterly fucking demented. You really want to look back over that absolute nick of a post before you do a full Neil Oliver, start frothing at the mouth and probably saw down some ULEZ cameras too. I think he means the cliques on this forum, not actually the ruling classes of the nation. Might be wrong though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 35 minutes ago, Loonytoons said: I think he means the cliques on this forum, not actually the ruling classes of the nation. Might be wrong though. I don't think that analysis makes his original claim any less fucking demented tbh. The ruling classes - a Marxist analysis of the power structure of Pie and Bovril. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermik Posted October 8, 2023 Share Posted October 8, 2023 23 minutes ago, virginton said: I don't think that analysis makes his original claim any less fucking demented tbh. The ruling classes - a Marxist analysis of the power structure of Pie and Bovril. Don’t worry Billy Bunter, the eternal schoolboy on here. My comments were not directed at you. Feel free if your ego is upset though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted October 8, 2023 Share Posted October 8, 2023 36 minutes ago, supermik said: Don’t worry Billy Bunter, the eternal schoolboy on here. My comments were not directed at you. Feel free if your ego is upset though. ^^^ word salad -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salt n Vinegar Posted October 8, 2023 Share Posted October 8, 2023 If discussions with folk I know are anything to go by, the Arab/Israel conflict is an issue that most folk have a view on but the views are based on relatively little background knowledge. I'm not setting myself up as any kind of middle east expert here; given it's importance, looking back, it was totally ignored when I was in school (mid 60s to mid 70s) and about all I can remember about school "history" would be about the French Revolution and the First World War. I won't suggest for a minute that Wikipedia is the answer to that knowledge deficit but for anyone interested, here's a link to their summary (no doubt folk are working on updates.) - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab–Israeli_conflict I referred a pal of mine to the page - before he saw it, he thought that it all kicked off because of the 6 Day War in 1967. Looking at the Wikipedia entry, it's such a pity that the big guy upstairs wasn't a bit clearer in his real estate allocations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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