Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran/Lebanon)

[Melanius Mullarkey]

6 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Thought the picture of Sunak's eager gophers sitting opposite Bin Salman's told quite a story today. Half way through video below.

 

#barclays

[DeeTillEhDeh]

2 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

Someone else picked up on that too yet surely now is not the time for policing folk on it as Israelis are not suffering under collective punishment. Instead they're enjoying collective solidarity. The most powerful man in the world just hugged their prime minister Netanyahu, well he's supposedly the worst of the lot yet he's getting hugs. Our taxes have paid for our PM to be over there just now doing similar. USA just vetoed a UN resolution to allow greater humanitarian aid into Gaza and UK abstained on the vote.

Little of this reflexive defensiveness is apparent when the Palestinians are discussed.  Al-Qassam Brigades become Hamas who become Gazans who become Palestinians. It all elides into one, no scolding happens over failures to differentiate there, and these folk in the ghetto get collectively punished. Deprived of drinking water, sanitation, electricity, food, and bombed. Lives lost, homes destroyed, communities ripped apart and any fledgling prosperity wiped out yet again.

Give me a post where I've done that.

Tarring Israelis (or Palestinians for that matter) for the actions of their leaders is not at all helpful.

The only way in the long run that this can be resolved is if Israeli voters remove Netanyahu and his cronies from power.  Attacking Israel doesn't just attack him but them as well. Netanyahu knows this and is clearly exploiting any anti-Israeli sentiment for his own ends. We've seen even before the current events the direction he was taking, particularly the reforms of the judicial process, a deliberate attempt to avoid corruption charges, remove judicial checks on politicians and solidify his position. There had been significant protests against these reforms but these were suspended on 7 October - not surprising given that the Israeli police chief has threatened to send anyone protesting to Gaza. Kobi Shabtai also said there would be “zero tolerance for any instance of incitement … there will be no authorisation for protests”.

He said that Israel is “in a state of war … we’re not in a situation where we will allow all sorts of people to come and test us”.

Since the start of the Gaza war, 63 people in Israel have been arrested on suspicion of supporting or inciting “terror”.

That is the reality of protest in Israel right now.   

In terms of the Palestinians it doesn't help that there is still the ongoing Hamas-Fatah conflict - and here Hamas are absolutely in the right.  By postponing elections Abbas is denying Palestinian voters their opportunity to choose their own leaders.

[SlipperyP]

First post on this thread, long time reader.

Im on @Ziggy Sobotka  side here. Lot's of posts beforehand of who did what and who this.  What we do know that 1370 missile were dropped on Gaza the last few days. All obviously presice targets.

I also found out what that "presice targets"means

. It's when it has a named target..doesnt mean it hit that target.

[The Moonster]

22 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

 

Tarring Israelis (or Palestinians for that matter) for the actions of their leaders is not at all helpful.

My post didn't do that but you wanted to be pedantic anyway. Answer me this, when people talk about the UK's position or the US position do you dive in and say "can you say UK government please because not all Brits agree with it?" No, you understand that when people are talking about foreign and domestic policies and mention a country that they are talking about the actions of a government. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

13 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

My post didn't do that but you wanted to be pedantic anyway. Answer me this, when people talk about the UK's position or the US position do you dive in and say "can you say UK government please because not all Brits agree with it?" No, you understand that when people are talking about foreign and domestic policies and mention a country that they are talking about the actions of a government. 

You yourself alluded to the problem - the deliberate conflagration by some (not you I will hasten to add) of Israel and the Israeli government to delegitimise Israel's right to exist.

It's similar to the way they use phrases like "Muslim terrorists" to feed their Islamophobic agenda.

Edited October 20, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[Granny Danger]

38 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

 

Tarring Israelis (or Palestinians for that matter) for the actions of their leaders is not at all helpful.

Most Israelis must take responsibility for what is happening.  There was a General Election in Israel last year in which the electorate voted for right-wing and hard right-wing parties in the knowledge that the most likely PM was Netanyahu a man who is facing corruption charges and who had vowed to make changes to the judiciary and the legal system in a way that makes it less independent; despotic behaviour.

Israel has an effective PR system for their elections therefore the government is accurately representative of the people and therefor it is fair to hold the people responsible for the actions of their government.

 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

5 minutes ago, ForzaViola said:

Does "We are targeting Hamas infrastructure" just mean "We are levelling civilians areas so they can't hang out there"?

My take is that the IDF will take a scorched earth action to the already blitzed Northern sector of Gaza, destroying the tunnels and any other alien infrastructure.

They will maintain this area as a buffer zone, with no prospect of a return by the Palestinians who will then be cattled in an overcrowded ghetto in South Gaza.  The Israeli Government will not be bothered if the Palestinians spill over into refugee camps in Egypt but Sisi will resist this tooth and nail.

The only bargaining chip appears to be the Israeli hostages but that is unlikely to reduce the hellish suffering of over a million people, with a huge death count as the world watches on in shameful impotence.

One thing is for sure however.  Israel and its many international sponsors may claim that Hamas is destroyed.  That may be true in terms of physical infrastructure and current strike capability, but it will surely come back to haunt them in future.  Hatred and violence born from injustice can't simply be bombed away.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

49 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Most Israelis must take responsibility for what is happening.  There was a General Election in Israel last year in which the electorate voted for right-wing and hard right-wing parties in the knowledge that the most likely PM was Netanyahu a man who is facing corruption charges and who had vowed to make changes to the judiciary and the legal system in a way that makes it less independent; despotic behaviour.

Israel has an effective PR system for their elections therefore the government is accurately representative of the people and therefor it is fair to hold the people responsible for the actions of their government.

 

It isn't truly proportional though and can be manipulated through the creation of joint party lists. At the last election, for example, Religious Zionism, Otzma Yehudit and Noam submitted a joint list whereas the 4 Arab parties submitted as 2 separate lists after their joint list was dissolved - with a threshold of 3.25%, it's clear this favoured the religious right parties.

The percentages of the government parties were:

* Likud  - 23.1%
* Shas - 8.24%
* Religious Zionism/Otzma Yehudit/ Noam - 10.83%
* United Torah Judaism - 5.88%

Total of 48.05%.

The anti-Netanyahu block gained more votes (49.5%) but did not gain enough seats due to Meretz and Balad narrowly missing the electoral threshold - 289,000 wasted votes.  Likud pulled every dirty trick in the book in those elections including filming polling stations in Arab areas and false reports of voting irregularities in Arab areas (thankfully ignored).

Had Meretz run on a joint list with Labor, as it sought to do and as outgoing Prime Minister Yair Lapid urged, and had Balad not opted to break away from Hadash-Ta’al and run alone, it is likely that the division of seats in the Knesset would have denied the Netanyahu bloc the outright majority it won. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[DeeTillEhDeh]

46 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

My take is that the IDF will take a scorched earth action to the already blitzed Northern sector of Gaza, destroying the tunnels and any other alien infrastructure.

They will maintain this area as a buffer zone, with no prospect of a return by the Palestinians who will then be cattled in an overcrowded ghetto in South Gaza.  The Israeli Government will not be bothered if the Palestinians spill over into refugee camps in Egypt but Sisi will resist this tooth and nail.

The only bargaining chip appears to be the Israeli hostages but that is unlikely to reduce the hellish suffering of over a million people, with a huge death count as the world watches on in shameful impotence.

One thing is for sure however.  Israel and its many international sponsors may claim that Hamas is destroyed.  That may be true in terms of physical infrastructure and current strike capability, but it will surely come back to haunt them in future.  Hatred and violence born from injustice can't simply be bombed away.

Wouldn't disagree with that - the actions of the Israeli government and the support received from the US, UK and other governments will almost certainly make nationals of those countries more likely to face revenge attacks.

[eez-eh]

1 hour ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

Glad to see we're confronting the real, tough issues here and scolding people for saying Israel instead of the Israeli government.

Hopefully all the same people are on the Ukraine thread pulling up anyone who says Russia instead of Russian government.

[J_Stewart]

17 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Wouldn't disagree with that - the actions of the Israeli government and the support received from the US, UK and other governments will almost certainly make nationals of those countries more likely to face revenge attacks.

Please explicitly state "US Government" and "UK Government" to avoid confusion.

[Granny Danger]

51 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

It isn't truly proportional though and can be manipulated through the creation of joint party lists. At the last election, for example, Religious Zionism, Otzma Yehudit and Noam submitted a joint list whereas the 4 Arab parties submitted as 2 separate lists after their joint list was dissolved - with a threshold of 3.25%, it's clear this favoured the religious right parties.

The percentages of the government parties were:

* Likud  - 23.1%
* Shas - 8.24%
* Religious Zionism/Otzma Yehudit/ Noam - 10.83%
* United Torah Judaism - 5.88%

Total of 48.05%.

The anti-Netanyahu block gained more votes (49.5%) but did not gain enough seats due to Meretz and Balad narrowly missing the electoral threshold - 289,000 wasted votes.  Likud pulled every dirty trick in the book in those elections including filming polling stations in Arab areas and false reports of voting irregularities in Arab areas (thankfully ignored).

Had Meretz run on a joint list with Labor, as it sought to do and as outgoing Prime Minister Yair Lapid urged, and had Balad not opted to break away from Hadash-Ta’al and run alone, it is likely that the division of seats in the Knesset would have denied the Netanyahu bloc the outright majority it won. 

OK so only 48% of Israelis are too blame.

 

[Trogdor]

28 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

OK so only 48% of Israelis are too blame.

Which isn't most Israelis, Sherlock.

[Ewanandmoreagain]

3 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Give me a post where I've done that.

Tarring Israelis (or Palestinians for that matter) for the actions of their leaders is not at all helpful.

 

 

The ordinary Palestinians always seem to suffer because of their leaders

[Freedom Farter]

3 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Give me a post where I've done that.

Tarring Israelis (or Palestinians for that matter) for the actions of their leaders is not at all helpful.

The only way in the long run that this can be resolved is if Israeli voters remove Netanyahu and his cronies from power.  Attacking Israel doesn't just attack him but them as well. Netanyahu knows this and is clearly exploiting any anti-Israeli sentiment for his own ends. We've seen even before the current events the direction he was taking, particularly the reforms of the judicial process, a deliberate attempt to avoid corruption charges, remove judicial checks on politicians and solidify his position. There had been significant protests against these reforms but these were suspended on 7 October - not surprising given that the Israeli police chief has threatened to send anyone protesting to Gaza. Kobi Shabtai also said there would be “zero tolerance for any instance of incitement … there will be no authorisation for protests”.

He said that Israel is “in a state of war … we’re not in a situation where we will allow all sorts of people to come and test us”.

Since the start of the Gaza war, 63 people in Israel have been arrested on suspicion of supporting or inciting “terror”.

That is the reality of protest in Israel right now.   

In terms of the Palestinians it doesn't help that there is still the ongoing Hamas-Fatah conflict - and here Hamas are absolutely in the right.  By postponing elections Abbas is denying Palestinian voters their opportunity to choose their own leaders.

You haven't. What I did there was quote your comment and use it as a springboard to mention something I see from media and politicians which frustrates me. That's not a smart thing to do on a forum as it looks like I'm instead lumping all onto the person I'm replying to, so apologies for that.

On the general point of discussion, whether current government alone should be isolated as the problem, I have a few thoughts:

The prevailing direction of a nation state society is influenced by more than just the current government. Its history and the nature of its founding can create a widely-imagined purpose. USA is a good case study. The police murders of young Black men that reached national reckoning levels under Obama's governance were little to do with that specific government. Most of the murders were by gun and guns had been ubiquitous in that society since the Europeans first began settling the land. Guns were used to ward off indigenous as well as other settlers from claimed land. They were also used to control the young Black men who were slaves of the settlers. There were African slaves in USA before the Mayflower arrived, that's how fundamental that particular type of white supremacy has been to US society. The first police forces were "slave patrols". To stop this legacy continuing to damage your contemporary society, there needs to be a broader re-education through your culture. Foundational myths and ideas of national self-conception need challenged. 

Many nation state societies are in need of bottom-up reimaginings. USA tops the list but there's plenty other examples, the likes of UK, France, Turkey, Russia, Pakistan and, yes, Israel. Those Israeli protests in recent times were just a sea of Israeli flags, it was limited protest kept very strictly within the established parameters of the national project. No trade union banners. You got a few LGBT flags but even they're in service of the national project (pinkwashing). Anyone flying a Palestinian flag was battered. Antizionist and otherwise dissident Israelis (I'm meaning Jewish-Israelis here let alone Palestinian-Israelis) were firmly shut out. Palestinian rights were not up for discussion. 

Another problem that's partly out of the democratic reach of citizens in certain nations is that their states have effectively become clients within global militarism. The afore-mentioned Turkey and Pakistan also have this issue as well as Israel. All three have been cultivated into important hot spots for the arms and security trade. In Israel's case, its turned into a mutual relationship as the Israeli military technology industry is now all-powerful. The same owners of these companies have majority shares in the dominant media conglomerates so Israelis are being blasted with propaganda telling them to vote for the candidate most in the pocket of these interests. That's currently Netanyahu but he's replaceable, the system needs ripping up.

[The Other Foot]

What a bizarre argument re percentage of voters and blame. Statistics for Dummies. 

[Freedom Farter]

7 hours ago, sophia said:

Yes and for good reason.

I think delegitimisation of Israel in its current guise, to some degree, is necessary for the cycles of violence to end. I think Israel needs to change from its current path (by how much, I don't know) and that goes beyond just the current government.

If you mean you worry about Israeli citizens when outside of Israel, I share that concern. However, they're not being targeted as fall out from these types of discussions. Murders of Israelis like in Egypt earlier this month or the 2012 Burgas massacre are coming from Islamic identity movements, jihadists and the like. That's its own ecosystem distinct from humanitarian criticism of Israel.

[TxRover]

3 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

OK so only 48% of Israelis are too blame.

 

48% of voting Israeli’s, no? So 48% of the 70.6% of registered voters, and the registered voters are 72.2% of the population….so you can correctly say that 33.88% of voters or roughly 24.5% of residents of Israel voted for the current Right-wing government.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

1 hour ago, The Other Foot said:

What a bizarre argument re percentage of voters and blame. Statistics for Dummies. 

The percentages are important because like it is not we are in this position because the anti-Netanyahu bloc didn't get their act together losing seats by not reaching the 3.25% threshold because they were splintered. 

You'd hope that they would resolve their differences for the 2026 Knesset elections - but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, TxRover said:

48% of voting Israeli’s, no? So 48% of the 70.6% of registered voters, and the registered voters are 72.2% of the population….so you can correctly say that 33.88% of voters or roughly 24.5% of residents of Israel voted for the current Right-wing government.

That’s an incredibly stupid take on the subject.  Because the 29.4% of registered voters who didn’t vote and the 27.8% of the population who didn’t register to vote are not guilt free, they’re culpable.

This is one of these situations where if you’re not part of the solution then you are definitely part of the problem.