Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran)

[Freedom Farter]

23 hours ago, GHF-23 said:

So the above is absolutely deranged, and it shouldn't require clarification why using the fucking Nazis as an analogue for the - repellent - government of Israel is unacceptable. But that being said it's interesting to see things I considered to be indicative of anti-Semitism, such as conflating Israel and the Jewish people or talking about good Jews and bad Jews (as below), have become absolutely fair game and it's actually now unacceptable according to many sensible moderate people in the US and Europe to disagree with this

 

 

I know I already replied but I looked up The Jerusalem Post myself just now and found this. Couldn't get a better example of what you described. "All Jews should leave the United Kingdom".

[Granny Danger]

3 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

I know I already replied but I looked up The Jerusalem Post myself just now and found this. Couldn't get a better example of what you described. "All Jews should leave the United Kingdom".

I’m assuming those Jews who attended the pro-Palestine rallies felt safe enough.

Maybe they were hyped up on antisemitic coffee.

[Freedom Farter]

39 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I’m assuming those Jews who attended the pro-Palestine rallies felt safe enough.

Maybe they were hyped up on antisemitic coffee.

I was more meaning that "all Jews should leave the United Kingdom" is something only the most committed antisemite would say...or an Israeli newspaper columnist. 

As GHF pointed out, antisemitic statements have become acceptable now if they're either said by Israeli chauvinists or are perceived as benefiting that movement. Maybe it began with Netanyahu's effort to  rehabilite Hitler's reputation (https://youtu.be/f9HmkRYlVZw?si=_Sq4p-hQJGUAt1VY).

 

[Cheese]

I don't doubt for a minute that the Jewish community in this country, or a part of that community, feel pretty anxious at the moment. There's been a huge rise in antisemitism (and Islamophobia) recently, as often happens when events in Israel and Palestine flair up.

The bad faith stuff highlighted in the last 2 pages from both the right wing press and the Israeli government to provide cover for their actions absolutely needs calling out as contributing to this issue. 

[beefybake]

".. The US is trying to be an honest broker....."  ( ref. Blinken's trotting round various governments..)

Bit surprised to hear that said by one of the main presenters, on CH 4 news a few moments ago.

Could hardly believe my ears. 

In no way is the US an honest broker.  The IDF assaults end the moment that the US says.... "Enough, stop now.."

Edited November 5, 2023 by beefybake

[Granny Danger]

11 minutes ago, beefybake said:

".. The US is trying to be an honest broker....."  ( ref. Blinken's trotting round various governments..)

Bit surprised to hear that said by one of the main presenters, on CH 4 news a few moments ago.

Could hardly believe my ears. 

In no way is the US an honest broker.  The IDF assaults end the moment that the US says.... "Enough, stop now.."

Blinken: please can we have a humanitarian pause?

 Netanyahu: f**k off

Blinken: ok well we will still keep giving you billions of dollars and strategic military support.

 

[GTG_03]

An ad in my Facebook messages to donate to the heroes of Israel.

Totally normal...

[Zetterlund]

Has either side released an estimate of how many 'Hamas fighters' have been taken out so far?

You'd expect a few must've been accidentally caught in the crossfire of all these civilian airstrikes.

[GHF-23]

20 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

I know I already replied but I looked up The Jerusalem Post myself just now and found this. Couldn't get a better example of what you described. "All Jews should leave the United Kingdom".

 

18 hours ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

I don't doubt for a minute that the Jewish community in this country, or a part of that community, feel pretty anxious at the moment. There's been a huge rise in antisemitism (and Islamophobia) recently, as often happens when events in Israel and Palestine flair up.

The bad faith stuff highlighted in the last 2 pages from both the right wing press and the Israeli government to provide cover for their actions absolutely needs calling out as contributing to this issue. 

Recent events have obviously led to a despicable rise in antisemitic behaviour and I can understand and empathise strongly with Jewish people being worried. When you see stories about people having suitcases ready in the hall or being terrified by protest marches which seem 99.9% peaceful and contain many Jewish people and groups, though, you have to wonder whether the behaviour of certain sections of British civil society, the political class and press from, oh let's just say 2015 for no particular reason, have terrorised the Jewish population of this country out of any reasonable proportion. Fair play to the utter dick but I saw a clip of James O'Brien making a similar point to a quite hysterical sounding Jewish person on his call-in show the other day.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

9 hours ago, GHF-23 said:

 

Recent events have obviously led to a despicable rise in antisemitic behaviour and I can understand and empathise strongly with Jewish people being worried. When you see stories about people having suitcases ready in the hall or being terrified by protest marches which seem 99.9% peaceful and contain many Jewish people and groups, though, you have to wonder whether the behaviour of certain sections of British civil society, the political class and press from, oh let's just say 2015 for no particular reason, have terrorised the Jewish population of this country out of any reasonable proportion. Fair play to the utter dick but I saw a clip of James O'Brien making a similar point to a quite hysterical sounding Jewish person on his call-in show the other day.

The Met Police reported 218 antisemitic offences were recorded from 1 October to 18 October this year, compared with 15 in the same period last year - an increase of 1350%.  Islamophobic offences increased by 140% in the same period - and will undoubtedly increase further.

As ever, the far right are using the current events to promote their own insidious agenda.

[Freedom Farter]

14 hours ago, GHF-23 said:

 

Recent events have obviously led to a despicable rise in antisemitic behaviour and I can understand and empathise strongly with Jewish people being worried. When you see stories about people having suitcases ready in the hall or being terrified by protest marches which seem 99.9% peaceful and contain many Jewish people and groups, though, you have to wonder whether the behaviour of certain sections of British civil society, the political class and press from, oh let's just say 2015 for no particular reason, have terrorised the Jewish population of this country out of any reasonable proportion. Fair play to the utter dick but I saw a clip of James O'Brien making a similar point to a quite hysterical sounding Jewish person on his call-in show the other day.

That's happening, aye, "weaponised claims of antisemitism" as Rachel Shabi described it. I think that discourse is mostly between non-Jews, though. My guess as to why some UK Jews are feeling an irrational fear is that aliyah propaganda is proving effective in some cases.

That's the origin of Jews settling or immigrating into Mandatory Palestine then Israel (taken from the Wikipedia entry on Aliyah). Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, living standards dropped dramatically in Ukraine, Russia and Belarus. Therefore, many of the Jews in those nations took up their option on immigrating to Israel to enjoy the higher living standards there. That immigration flow has now slowed and will continue decreasing over time. What's really noticeable is how much the EU and US immigration to Israel has increased in that final bar, the 2010s. Unlike the ex-Soviet immigration, that didn't happen due to simple economic reasons. Those are mostly ideological immigrants, partly the result of effective aliyah propaganda.

These are the biggest remaining "reservoirs" of diaspora Jews for Israel to target, in Europe and especially in USA. They're not only sought to make West Bank colonisation easier but also because they're mostly secular and educated. That means they'll be tax payers and Israel is concerned about being able to continue funding its burgeoning ultra-orthodox demographic. 

So Israel has been targeting European and US Jews with aliyah propaganda for a while now. More so US Jews and due to the shared language the talking points easily spread to UK. The two main ideas being pushed are that Israel must be central to their Jewish identity even as a diaspora Jew and that their home society is antisemitic so they must escape to the safety of Israel.

Jewish American man fed up with aliyah narratives and the contradictions therein:

Edited November 6, 2023 by Freedom Farter

[Shadow Play]

I’m far from knowledgeable on this subject so it may be a stupid question but why doesn’t Egypt open the crossing to allow people wishing to flee Gaza the opportunity to do so in a controlled manner?  Perhaps with international donors giving Egypt some financial help if that was required? 

[Newbornbairn]

11 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

I’m far from knowledgeable on this subject so it may be a stupid question but why doesn’t Egypt open the crossing to allow people wishing to flee Gaza the opportunity to do so in a controlled manner?  Perhaps with international donors giving Egypt some financial help if that was required? 

Quote

Egypt has deployed hundreds of security forces to the Rafah border crossing, according to Egyptian media, and is resisting pressure from Israel and the United States to let Palestinians flee, fearing an exodus of Gaza’s 2.3 million people into its Sinai Peninsula—where Egypt is already fighting insurgents. It fears assuming responsibility for a massive refugee population and the risks of fleeing militants using its territory to attack or plot against Israel, which could prompt Israel to target them on Egyptian soil.

As the Financial Times noted, “Cairo would not want to police an exiled community that could include militants who want to fight Israel from its territory.”

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/18/egypt-hamas-israel-border-gaza/

[welshbairn]

9 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

I’m far from knowledgeable on this subject so it may be a stupid question but why doesn’t Egypt open the crossing to allow people wishing to flee Gaza the opportunity to do so in a controlled manner?  Perhaps with international donors giving Egypt some financial help if that was required? 

2 reasons, Egypt have their own trouble supressing Islamicists and don't need more volunteers for IS and the Muslim Brotherhood to slip through. Secondly they don't want to facilitate another round of ethnic cleansing and territorial expansion for Israel.

[Cheese]

They also wouldn't be permitted to return to their homes in Palestine.

[TxRover]

13 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

I’m far from knowledgeable on this subject so it may be a stupid question but why doesn’t Egypt open the crossing to allow people wishing to flee Gaza the opportunity to do so in a controlled manner?  Perhaps with international donors giving Egypt some financial help if that was required? 

In the post 1948 war environment, only Jordan effectively accepted and integrated some Palestinian refugees. Since then, further Palestinians have been ghettoized in Jordan with significantly fewer rights. The remaining Arab countries didn’t want to condone Israeli ethnic cleansing and/or the Palestinians didn’t want to simply accept having been displaced and their properties seized. This devolved into the Arab world effectively supporting the Palestinians in refugee camps and within Gaza and the West Bank as a potential cudgel for the Israelis. However, as the Israeli and Arab relations have become more pragmatic, the Palestinians have become an albatross in the area, moved from pillar to post by third parties who have seemingly never had their interests in mind.

The Palestinians are predominantly Sunni, which is why the Iranian (Shia majority) support is quite tactical, and yet another reason why in Lebanon Hezbollah (Shia majority) are in no rush while Fatah al-Islam (Sunni, based in Palestinian refugee camps) is busy causing low-level attacks on Israel. Meanwhile, in majority Sunni Egypt, they want nothing to do with the radical  Sunnis created in the Gaza Strip, since (as noted above) they are already dealing with their own issues and have relatively cordial relations with Israel…plus allowing them into Egypt would likely result in permanent exile for those Palestinians from the Gaza Strip, leaving Egypt a long-term issue. There is an argument that the Israeli government wouldn’t exile those who left in order to maintain relations with Egypt, but the current right-wing Israeli government is unlikely to really care.

[Shadow Play]

@Newbornbairn @welshbairn @Ziggy Sobotka @TxRover

Appreciate you all taking the time to answer.  That certainly helps answer why opening the border would raise a number of potential issues.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Shadow Play

[eez-eh]

3 hours ago, Newbornbairn said:

resisting pressure from Israel and the United States to let Palestinians flee

“Here I know we could just stop bombing the shit out of it, but where’s the fun in that? So the onus is actually on you to open your border so we can keep bombing. Thanks x”

[beefybake]

5 hours ago, TxRover said:

In the post 1948 war environment, only Jordan effectively accepted and integrated some Palestinian refugees. Since then, further Palestinians have been ghettoized in Jordan with significantly fewer rights.

 

IIRC from long ago, the PLO when they were in Jordan, began to destabilise the country. Eventually the late King Hussain had to send his own army against them.

Presumably that history is part of the rights thing.

Also, I remember reading something, a biography/autobiography, about Hussein.  He said that he had spent half of of his reign on board planes,

flying to and from this capital and that capital..., trying to keep things from kicking off more than they did.

[Freedom Farter]

Jordan's queen was born in Kuwait to Palestinian refugee parents. Here she is giving her tuppence worth: