sparky88 Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Israel's retaliation is perhaps the whole point of Hamas' attacks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScotiaNostra Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Monsters are monsters whatever side they are on and in this conflict, theres too many on both sides 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Artillery and gunfire on the Northern border between Israel and Lebanon with reports of a security incident in the area, which could mean infiltrators. I'd expect that area to be more heavily fortified and the security forces in the area to be on higher alert to avoid a repeat of what happened two days ago. They just also announced that several infiltrators have been killed. Huge levels of strikes happening in Gaza at the moment also with an Israeli mobilisation underway and troops preparing for a ground assault. One thing to note is that when Israel last invaded Gaza they found it extremely difficult and challanging. We can see from the attacks that Hamas has learned and adapted their tactics in attacking since then, the assumption should be that they have also done so defensively and there shouldn't be any assumption that the IDF will be able to destroy Hamas as a fighting force 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Good guys doing good guy things. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
senorsoupe Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 The inability of.the media and most people to see any sort of nuance in this mess is just depressing. Expressing concern for Palestinian civilians does not mean you support Hamas, and an outward condemnation of Hamas does not mean you give carte-blanche support for Israel's reaction. It's especially bad in the context of the United States where it's either all Joe Biden's fault or all Donald Trump's fault 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScotiaNostra Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 10 minutes ago, senorsoupe said: The inability of.the media and most people to see any sort of nuance in this mess is just depressing. Expressing concern for Palestinian civilians does not mean you support Hamas, and an outward condemnation of Hamas does not mean you give carte-blanche support for Israel's reaction. It's especially bad in the context of the United States where it's either all Joe Biden's fault or all Donald Trump's fault Twitter is full of those sort of clowns, that cant see any nuance 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHF-23 Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 It's a good question Peter. On an unrelated note I wonder what the British press might have been up to in the last, say, 10 years that might have led this very obviously correct opinion to be considered unacceptable in public life 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) First Minister's parents currently in Gaza https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/11349836/humza-yousafs-in-laws-trapped-gaza/ Apologies for the Bun link but it's more detailed than either the Daily Ranger, Yahoo News or BBC. English broadsheets don't seem to have picked up on it as yet. ETA - BBC seems to have updated - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67057367?at_campaign=KARANGA&at_medium=RSS Edited October 9, 2023 by carpetmonster 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 39 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: The Israeli government have been in the wrong for a long time but nothing justifies the murder of innocent civilians. And I will say the same if Israeli retributive action kills innocent Palestinians. coprolite’s post on the GN thread answers this more succinctly than I can. See below. I’m not trying to justify the killing of innocent civilians but I find your moralising ignores context. 3 hours ago, coprolite said: There might be something about being brought up in or around refugee camps under Seige and occasional murderous aerial bombardment from your neighbour with no hope of improving your situation that could skew one’s moral compass a bit? Shooting unarmed civilians is clearly very badly wrong, morally and against all laws of war. But these guys aren’t Western incel jihadis. They’re acting inhumanly in part because they’ve been systematically dehumanised, many for their whole lives. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Israeli Air Force has targeted locations inside Lebanon with combat helicopters, following the infiltration. Palestinian Islamic Jihad have claimed they carried out the attack. Wasn't aware that they were operating in Lebanon, there are a few different groups called variations of "Islamic Jihad" so maybe one of them claimed it. The Egyptian intelligence minister claimed he called Benjamin Netanyahu last week and warned him that something was brewing in Gaza. Netanyahu has denied that he was ever warned by the Egyptican intelligence minister of an attack from Gaza. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, ICTChris said: Israeli Air Force has targeted locations inside Lebanon with combat helicopters, following the infiltration. Palestinian Islamic Jihad have claimed they carried out the attack. Wasn't aware that they were operating in Lebanon, there are a few different groups called variations of "Islamic Jihad" so maybe one of them claimed it. The Egyptian intelligence minister claimed he called Benjamin Netanyahu last week and warned him that something was brewing in Gaza. Netanyahu has denied that he was ever warned by the Egyptican intelligence minister of an attack from Gaza. I assume there will be some link to Iran in all this? PIJ completely rejected the Oslo accord and any 2 state solution. Used to be funded by the Syrians and Hezbollah but both backed off as even they found them difficult to work with. Hamas distanced themselves as far back as 2012 Edited October 9, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eez-eh Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 As grim as what’s already happened is, you’d think so-called civilisation would be a wee bit more cautious about a country announcing that it’s going to “effectively obliterate” a densely populated area of 2.5 million people. Nope, “full support” all the way. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pens_Dark Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 7 minutes ago, eez-eh said: As grim as what’s already happened is, you’d think so-called civilisation would be a wee bit more cautious about a country announcing that it’s going to “effectively obliterate” a densely populated area of 2.5 million people. Nope, “full support” all the way. I can't help but think of universal condemnation of similar sentiment from Russia on Ukraine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Just now, DeeTillEhDeh said: I assume there will be some link to Iran in all this? Iran fund Hezbollah and Hamas, help procure them weapons and training. As to whether they were involved in the planning or execution of the latest attack, that's not certain. The initial assessment from Israelis was that Iran didn't plan or train Hamas for the operation. It's doubtful that Hamas need sign-off or permission from Iran to do this sort of thing, although maybe the Iranians were aware. Prior to a couple of days ago Hezbollah would have been considered a far more dangerous adversery by Israel, they have more advanced weapons than most nation states, they have anti-air capabilities, they have anti-ship weapons that they've used successfully. They have a physical base in Lebanon and also support from Iran and the Syrian regime. They have battle experience in the Syrian civil war and have up to 100,000 fighters (that's probably a bit high but that's what they've said). Hamas don't have these levels of weaponary or capabilities - however, the recent attack shows that Hamas may have been underestimated, they aren't just firiing rockets or defending against attacks anymore. One idea is that Iran uses Hezbollah as a threat to keep Israel from attacking it - if Israel moves directly against Iran, Iran will unleash Hezbollah. That concept might keep Hezbollah from fully engaging but who knows? This attack is unprecedented in the last 75 years so the previous ways of thinking may need to be re-calibrated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggy McJagface Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 The extent to which Palestinians are being dehumanised in a lot of the discourse surrounding this conflict is really quite shocking. Social media seems to be full of people all but calling for Gaza to be driven into the sea. The fact that the media and political establishment basically give Israel a blank cheque to do whatever it wants without criticism probably contributes to this, but it’s still pretty horrifying to watch. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanius Mullarkey Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Wonder how Iran’s nuke programme is getting on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 1 hour ago, senorsoupe said: ...It's especially bad in the context of the United States where it's either all Joe Biden's fault or all Donald Trump's fault Just shows how self-centred they are that they think what their political leaders do always makes the pivotal difference. Hamas have been building up their military prowess to this point for years and that means every so often regardless of who is US president they'll be launching missles at Israeli cities and trying to infiltrate. The last time the Israelis tried a big invasion-style operation they found it very hard going against Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. They found out the hard way that they have a generation that grew up with playstations in their parents' basement, who are really not that keen on fighting kids who grew up in refugee camps. It's not the 60s or 70s any more when both side grew up in tough spartan environments. Their answer has been high tech solutions like Iron Dome so they do not need to go in and control the ground missiles are being fired from and simply pulverising the Gaza Strip into submission from fighter jets and helicopters. If Iron Dome can now be overwhelmed by firing huge numbers of missiles simultaneously, and they ever wound up fighting an opponent with the sort of anti-tank and anti-aircraft weaponry the Russians and Ukrainians have access to... Hezbollah and the Iranians aren't going to be busy with the Syrian conflict forever so as far as I can see they really do need to find a viable peace deal but the way their politics work right now that's a one-way ticket to political oblivion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClydeTon Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 4 hours ago, Pens_Dark said: One of the problems with social media is direct access to some really harrowing content. We have seen it in Ukraine and we are now seeing it here. Not to get too deep about it but it makes me think about the world I've brought a child in to. Never mind air fairy heaven and hell tales, there is genuinely hell on earth in certain areas. On the slightly brighter side of the coin, this exposes everyone, particularly the younger generations, to the horrors of war (without having to live it) - and should give much more reason to push for peace, and a better world overall. If we don't see the shocking content that is coming from Israel/Gaza, Ukraine, etc.; nobody knows what it looks like. It may be a "problem" of social media, or it may be one of it's benefits. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Bernard Cowan from Glasgow has been confirmed to have died in the attack. Ten British citizens are confirmed to have died. https://news.stv.tv/west-central/glasgow-man-among-britons-dead-after-hamas-attack-in-israel 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Pack Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Some HAMAS mouthpiece denying that they killed any civilians at the music festival on Sky News. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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