Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran/Lebanon)

[coprolite]

12 hours ago, orfc said:

And is similar criticism applied to any other country on here? Where are the similar 100+ page threads about the Saudis actions in Yemen, the Iranians/Turks actions against the Kurds, etc etc?

One major difference is that (the modern state of) Israel is a Western colonial project that the UK created with the support of the UN. That has historically created an interest in the conflict in the UK. It also creates quite strong views in other countries. 

Another difference is that the territories affected and some of the claims to them are culturally significant to all of Christendom. Jerusalem is just more box office than Aden. 

The conflict itself has broader and more significant proxy interests than the others you mention. The Turkish Kurds aren't backed by a wanabe nuclear power against the US.  

There are plenty of reasons why the interest in this conflict us wider and more intense than in regional skirmishes. None of which are anti semitic. 

I don't think that the criticism of Israel has been at all different in nature than, for example, the criticism of Azerbaijan. It's just that fewer people are familiar with the Ngorno Karabakh situation (i'm certainly not) so there's less of it. 

In any case, the IHRA definition might be widely used but it's not definitive. Personally i think it goes too far in proscribing criticism of the Israeli state. You can't say it's racist or compare them to Nazis. It's not obvious (to me anyway) why accusing an apartheid state of racism is prejudicial against Jewish people. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by coprolite

[sophia]

1 hour ago, GHF-23 said:

If there's one silver lining in recent events it's confirmed my belief that all OSINT guys should be burned with hot irons and have their circle-drawing hands mutilated like the French used to do to longbowmen

Its all turning out to be not a little bit inconvenient but at least it allowed the usual cohort their day of rage on here

[Sergeant Wilson]

56 minutes ago, coprolite said:

 

I don't think that the criticism of Israel has been at all different in nature than, for example, the criticism of Azerbaijan. It's just that fewer people are familiar with the Ngorno Karabakh situation (i'm certainly not) so there's less of it. 

 

How dare you! we've got experts all over this site, that could tell you where the nearest public toilet is in Ngorno Karabakh and everywhere else. Only the other day the Ukranian army were being guided to high ground, avoiding the marshes etc in some oblast or other. They even get told which rockets to fire.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

The devil is in the detail.

Joe Biden's meeting with Netanyahu has prised open the crossing at the Egyptian border with Gaza to permit aid lorries to get through.  So far so good until we learn that twenty, yes twenty, lorries will be initially permitted access, and even then the road surfaces are an issue due to bombing earlier this week.

I'd reckon that on a normal day the county of Argyll, with a fraction of the population of Gaza, will receive twenty such deliveries.

[101]

23 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

The devil is in the detail.

Joe Biden's meeting with Netanyahu has prised open the crossing at the Egyptian border with Gaza to permit aid lorries to get through.  So far so good until we learn that twenty, yes twenty, lorries will be initially permitted access, and even then the road surfaces are an issue due to bombing earlier this week.

I'd reckon that on a normal day the county of Argyll, with a fraction of the population of Gaza, will receive twenty such deliveries.

And they don't have to negotiate a road that has been bombed specifically to disrupt supply chains. 

I mean Argyll and Bute council are good at potholes but I suspect even they can't match the roads in Gaza.

[Cosmic Joe]

3 minutes ago, orfc said:

 

It's obvious there's a massive bias for one side on this forum, prob roughly in total the same number that downvoted my completely correct post on the matter, and an amazing overlap with the "everyone's a Tory except me" subgroup too. Let's see if we can make it -30 lads

 

Don't you mean opinion? 

[The Moonster]

2 minutes ago, orfc said:

It's a well written post that explains the quantity of debate but not the quality or bias.

When news of this hospital carnage broke there were immediately a dozen posts who'd immediately swallowed the Hamas version of events - "Israel are b*****ds" etc

Not one went "hang on, let's see what actually happened"

Then when it turned out there were more than a few bits of evidence pointing to it being a Hamas/ally fuckup there were a similar number of posts saying "yeh well we just don't take what people say at face value do we lads, it's obviously deflecting bollox"... (and that caused a massive cry throughout the hypocrisy multiverse which my psychic senses are attuned to)

It's obvious there's a massive bias for one side on this forum, prob roughly in total the same number that downvoted my completely correct post on the matter, and an amazing overlap with the "everyone's a Tory except me" subgroup too. Let's see if we can make it -30 lads

 

Israel are b*****ds. They are bombing the West Bank and other civilians, they are not targeting Hamas. This is not the same as calling Jewish people b*****ds. It's also not an excuse for Hamas to carry out what they did. Ram your anti-semetic pish up your arse along with your "downvote me coz am an edgelord c**t" pish. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

Why is it misplaced bombs always land on hospitals/schools/weddings/funerals?

 

[sophia]

13 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Israel are b*****ds. They are bombing the West Bank and other civilians, they are not targeting Hamas. This is not the same as calling Jewish people b*****ds. It's also not an excuse for Hamas to carry out what they did. Ram your anti-semetic pish up your arse along with your "downvote me coz am an edgelord c**t" pish. 

Would it not be fairer to say the Israeli government?

[oneteaminglasgow]

The issue with giving Israel, or more specifically the IDF, the benefit of the doubt is that there’s a litany of examples of them blaming Hamas for stuff that looks bad only to turn backtrack when it becomes obvious that it was them. Shireen Abu Akleh’s murder is one example, but there are clearly others. 

[coprolite]

21 minutes ago, orfc said:

It's a well written post that explains the quantity of debate but not the quality or bias.

When news of this hospital carnage broke there were immediately a dozen posts who'd immediately swallowed the Hamas version of events - "Israel are b*****ds" etc

Not one went "hang on, let's see what actually happened"

Then when it turned out there were more than a few bits of evidence pointing to it being a Hamas/ally fuckup there were a similar number of posts saying "yeh well we just don't take what people say at face value do we lads, it's obviously deflecting bollox"... (and that caused a massive cry throughout the hypocrisy multiverse which my psychic senses are attuned to)

It's obvious there's a massive bias for one side on this forum, prob roughly in total the same number that downvoted my completely correct post on the matter, and an amazing overlap with the "everyone's a Tory except me" subgroup too. Let's see if we can make it -30 lads

 

I thought that it was likely Israel that bombed the hospital because they've got previous. That is clear bias on my part, and i freely admit it. 

My judgement of that particular incident wasn’t made by impartially weighing up the evidence. It was made pretty much subconsciously based on limited and prior knowledge. Like almost every judgement everyone ever makes. 

If a lot of other people also made that same judgement then that suggests that there's probably a well known pattern of historical behaviour that people are using as a cognitive shortcut to reaching a conclusion. 

I'd suggest that that's a more likely source of "bias" than antisemitic feeling. 

I also have no idea what Hamas claimed. I mean i guess the claimed Israel did it but i haven't seen their claim. 

I've also not evaluated the contrary claims and doubt I'll ever be in a position to really do that satisfactorily. 

Reaching an obvious conclusion about something isn't the same as "swallowing Hamas BS." 

Bias is an unavoidable feature of human judgement. It doesn't necessarily come from religious intolerance. 

 

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, orfc said:

It's a well written post that explains the quantity of debate but not the quality or bias.

When news of this hospital carnage broke there were immediately a dozen posts who'd immediately swallowed the Hamas version of events - "Israel are b*****ds" etc

Not one went "hang on, let's see what actually happened"

Then when it turned out there were more than a few bits of evidence pointing to it being a Hamas/ally fuckup there were a similar number of posts saying "yeh well we just don't take what people say at face value do we lads, it's obviously deflecting bollox"... (and that caused a massive cry throughout the hypocrisy multiverse which my psychic senses are attuned to)

It's obvious there's a massive bias for one side on this forum, prob roughly in total the same number that downvoted my completely correct post on the matter, and an amazing overlap with the "everyone's a Tory except me" subgroup too. Let's see if we can make it -30 lads

 

You have your major media outlets, your political parties, and the benefactors of both all agreeing with you. Yet you're outraged that in this tiny, completely insignificant and powerless corner of the internet, you've come across some dissent. 

[Leith Green]

1 hour ago, orfc said:

It's a well written post that explains the quantity of debate but not the quality or bias.

When news of this hospital carnage broke there were immediately a dozen posts who'd immediately swallowed the Hamas version of events - "Israel are b*****ds" etc

Not one went "hang on, let's see what actually happened"

Then when it turned out there were more than a few bits of evidence pointing to it being a Hamas/ally fuckup there were a similar number of posts saying "yeh well we just don't take what people say at face value do we lads, it's obviously deflecting bollox"... (and that caused a massive cry throughout the hypocrisy multiverse which my psychic senses are attuned to)

It's obvious there's a massive bias for one side on this forum, prob roughly in total the same number that downvoted my completely correct post on the matter, and an amazing overlap with the "everyone's a Tory except me" subgroup too. Let's see if we can make it -30 lads

 

My initial detail came from a WHO tweet which had a press release.  Its now been adjusted to remove the very specific allegation that it was Israel, but I have posted it below. In the initial tweet it said the attack was by Israel.

So it wasnt Hamas, it was the WHO (and also the Anglican church) who initially pointed to Israel.

WHO strongly condemns the attack on Al Ahli Arab Hospital in the north of the Gaza Strip. The hospital was operational, with patients, health and care givers, and internally displaced people sheltering there. Early reports indicate hundreds of fatalities and injuries.

The hospital was one of 20 in the north of the Gaza Strip facing evacuation orders from the Israeli military. The order for evacuation has been impossible to carry out given the current insecurity, critical condition of many patients, and lack of ambulances, staff, health system bed capacity, and alternative shelter for those displaced.

WHO calls for the immediate active protection of civilians and health care. Evacuation orders must be reversed. International humanitarian law must be abided by, which means health care must be actively protected and never targeted.

[beefybake]

12 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

You have your major media outlets, your political parties, and the benefactors of both all agreeing with you. Yet you're outraged that in this tiny, completely insignificant and powerless corner of the internet, you've come across some dissent. 

I watched Ch4 news last night. They spoke to several people who survived the hospital blast. Those people said they had received warnings/threats from Israel over several days prior that the hospital would be attacked.

There was a recording presented by Israel that they said was part of a conversation between two Hamas people.

In it, one person said that the explosion was one of theirs. The other person said to blame it on Islamic Jihad.

Ch4 then said that they had presented the recording to two Palestininan ( I think ) experts who said it was fake , and obviously so.

Dialects, intonations all wrong.

Edited October 19, 2023 by beefybake

[printer]

21 hours ago, Brother Blades said:

I fucking hate “the west” it’s unreal how sycophantic they are to the Israeli government. 

For sure what Hamas did a week past Saturday was disgraceful, but the most militarised country on the globe indiscriminately bombing civilians with no urging of restraint from western powers is an absolute disgrace. 

It isn't really sycophancy. They are protecting their own interests to retain influence in the area including control of the oil. Having Israel onside is a crucial aspect of that.

US leads and UK and the rest follow. 

Eta For the sake of clarity, I'm not saying I agree with that.

Edited October 19, 2023 by printer

[The Moonster]

1 hour ago, sophia said:

Would it not be fairer to say the Israeli government?

I thought it was clear when I mentioned the acts being carried out that I was talking about their government, I'm not saying all Israelis are bombing the West Bank or all Israelis are b*****ds.

[Granny Danger]

Just now, The Moonster said:

I thought it was clear when I mentioned the acts being carried out that I was talking about their government, I'm not saying all Israelis are bombing the West Bank or all Israelis are b*****ds.

Not all Israelis are b*****ds, but the majority of the ones who vote apparently are.

[Billy Jean King]

"This is the worlds darkest hour".  Absolutely mental rhetoric from the Israeli PM there.

[Jaggy McJagface]

34 minutes ago, beefybake said:

I watched Ch4 news last night. They spoke to several people who survived the hospital blast. Those people said they had received warnings/threats from Israel over several days prior that the hospital would be attacked.

There was a recording presented by Israel that they said was part of a conversation between two Hamas people.

In it, one person said that the explosion was one of theirs. The other person said to blame it on Islamic Jihad.

Ch4 then said that they had presented the recording to two Palestininan ( I think ) experts who said it was fake , and obviously so.

Dialects, intonations all wrong.

The balance of evidence in terms of the ballistics seem to imply it was in all likelihood a Gazan rocket rather than an Israeli airstrike, however the fact that the Israelis are clearly lying about or embellishing some aspects means you can be forgiven for not giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

It’s a bit like the boy who cried wolf I suppose. The IDF have previous for completely making things up and blaming things on Palestinians, with the memory of the Al Jazeera journalist they killed being a perfect example.

 

The first casualty of war is truth, and I don’t think we should take Israeli or Hamas claims at face value as they both have a vested interest in lying about things.

[Granny Danger]

Why are Hamas rockets never so effective and accurate when attacking Israel?