Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[WellView]

Just now, Desp said:

I posed the original question to see what folk's opinions of McCall were - I wasn't really looking to go into detail about whether he was a success or not.

Certainly, with McCall's team we had some wonderful moments, some great results, some great players.  I think from my side of things, the negatives hurt that bit more because I firmly believe we had a such a good side at the time, we should have done more! Maybe that's why I'm so critical of McCall.  I certainly he got lucky during his time as Motherwell, and he took advantage of it to an extent, but he had the scope to a helluva lot more with it.  It almost came across at times he was happy enough to sit back and enjoy the lucky situation rather than grab it by the bollocks and get more.  IMO, we should have won a cup with the side we had (particularly 2012/13).  We should have had a very good stab at qualifying for the Group Stages of the Europa (rather than taking the piss against part timers and getting your arse handed to you).

Was McCall better at being Motherwell manager than most others?  Absolutely. 

Was he successful?  Define 'success'...

3rd - 2nd - 2nd. 

Thanks for asking. 

By the way, you're good at holding grudges.  

[Swello]

No two 'Well fans would agree on what success means - as per thisGRAEME - we are divided on almost every manager we've ever had (never heard praise for Harri Kampmann mind you.)

I tend to look at what a manager has to work with in terms of budget and how much of a mess he inherited. For example, I'd consider Robinson a success if we stay up this season, just as last year - but others have obviously got much higher expectations (which is totally fair enough).

Crudely, since I've watched us:

McLean: Success

McLeish: Failure

Kampmann: Failure

Davies: Failure

Black: Failure

Butcher: Failure (but a fairly enjoyable one)

McGhee #1: Success

Gannon: Failure

Brown: A snivelling wee w**k (but a success)

McCall: Success

Barraclough: Failure

McGhee #2: Failure

I highly doubt anyone would agree with every one of them and therein lies the problem...

[Desp]

14 minutes ago, WellView said:

3rd - 2nd - 2nd. 

Thanks for asking. 

By the way, you're good at holding grudges.  

So winning nothing is an achievement to you?  Fair enough.  Each to their own.  I would have loved to have looked back on us winning a trophy at Hampden, and I firmly believe we missed an opportunity in not doing so.  I also firmly believe the manager should have gotten more out of that team, but didn't do it.  You perhaps don't - again, fair enough.  I can't see the club holding 10th or 25th anniversary parties of that time we finished 2nd twice in a row.

Why would I hold a grudge?  I hold, it would seem, a very different opinion to yours.  I'm evidently not as big as fan of McCall as you were.  It's allowed.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Desp

[WellView]

Just now, Desp said:

So winning nothing is an achievement to you?  Fair enough.  Each to their own.  I would have loved to have looked back on us winning a trophy at Hampden, and I firmly believe we missed an opportunity in doing so.  I also firmly believe the manager should have gotten more out of that team, but didn't do it.  You perhaps don't - again, fair enough.  I can't see the club holding 10th or 25th anniversary parties of that time we finished 2nd twice in a row.

Why would I hold a grudge?  I hold, it would seem, a very different opinion to yours.  I'm evidently not as big as fan of McCall as you were.  It's allowed.

I've seen us relegated three times, saved once by a non-footballing stitch up.  

You better believe any season we finish in the top two or three is a success. 

[Al B]

I definitely think you can have achievement without winning. Partick's high finish with games to spare last year was an achievement, at the opposite end of the scale when Celtic do 10-in-a-row that will be an achievement (despite the lack of challenge). It's all relative to situation, starting point, and what the "normal" usually is for me and as both Desp and Swello say, everyones idea of those is different.

A big part of it for me is "how much did I enjoy it". I generally don't often think too far past that way of thinking in all honesty.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Al B

[thisGRAEME]

27 minutes ago, Al B said:

 at the opposite end of the scale when Celtic do 10-in-a-row that will be an achievement (despite the lack of challenge). I

Aside from everything, they won't, btw.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Swello said:

Crudely, since I've watched us:

McLean: Success

McLeish: Failure

Kampmann: Failure

Davies: Failure

Black: Failure

Butcher: Failure (but a fairly enjoyable one)

McGhee #1: Success

Gannon: Failure

Brown: A snivelling wee w**k (but a success)

McCall: Success

Barraclough: Failure

McGhee #2: Failure

I highly doubt anyone would agree with every one of them and therein lies the problem...

FWIW: I've been watching the same length of time, by and large that list matches with my view.

To expand a bit more here are each of those managers records and win %

McLean: Success - P: 403 W: 123  D: 111 L: 169 - 30.52%
McLeish: Failure - P: 134 W: 38 D: 39: L 55 - 28.36%
Kampmann: Failure - P: 21 W: 5 D: 10 L: 6 - 23.81%
Davies: Failure - P: 108 W: 34 D: 28 L: 55 - 31.48%
Black: Failure - P: 27 W: 7 D: 4 L: 16 - 25.93%
Butcher: Failure - P: 154 W: 47  D: 36 L: 71 - 30.52% 
McGhee #1: Success - P: 76 W: 31 D: 15 L: 30 - 40.79%
Gannon: Failure - P: 17 W:  4 D: 8 L: 5  - 23.53%
Brown: A snivelling wee w**k (but a success) - P: 35 W: 16  D: 8 L: 11 - 45.14%
McCall: Success - P: 146 W: 67  D: 25 L: 54 - 45.89%
Barraclough: Failure - P: 32 W: 11  D: 5 L: 21 - 34.38%
McGhee #2: Failure - P: 54 W: 18  D: 10 L: 26 - 33.34%
Robinson: TBC - P 46 W 20 D 7 L 19 - 43.5%

Edited February 6, 2018 by capt_oats

[Al B]

That kinda backs up the point that Stuart McCall has actually been really hard done by. Sacked for having a better record with Bradford than we have had with anyone in modern times.

[MJC]

1 hour ago, Desp said:

I posed the original question to see what folk's opinions of McCall were - I wasn't really looking to go into detail about whether he was a success or not.

Certainly, with McCall's team we had some wonderful moments, some great results, some great players.  I think from my side of things, the negatives hurt that bit more because I firmly believe we had a such a good side at the time, we should have done more! Maybe that's why I'm so critical of McCall.  I certainly he got lucky during his time as Motherwell, and he took advantage of it to an extent, but he had the scope to a helluva lot more with it.  It almost came across at times he was happy enough to sit back and enjoy the lucky situation rather than grab it by the bollocks and get more.  IMO, we should have won a cup with the side we had (particularly 2012/13).  We should have had a very good stab at qualifying for the Group Stages of the Europa (rather than taking the piss against part timers and getting your arse handed to you).

Was McCall better at being Motherwell manager than most others?  Absolutely. 

Was he successful?  Define 'success'...

That sums it up for me and put better than I could. We missed the boat under McCall so far as winning silverware goes because we had the squad to do it, we just didn't have the necessary character, will to win or correct tactics on the days we exited the Cups during that time and that is 100% at the door of the manager.

As far as the League Cup defeat at Ibrox in 2012 goes, I get the argument that it would have been tough for any top flight side to go there as the first ones to play the newco Rangers after the circus surrounding them that summer, but I'm afraid that just doesn't wash for me. As has already been said, McCall didn't help matters one iota by talking up them as favourites and all that guff about them having a "12th man with the home support behind them" etc. We went into that tie top of the league and undefeated, whilst they had just been papped out if the challenge cup at home by QoS the week before and had several of their higher earners missing the night they played us. Yet we go into that game with our manager's words ringing in our players ears about how difficult this was going to be and they all but had shite running down their legs as they ran out the tunnel and never looked like scoring all night. All this in a match that the support were absolutely desperate to win given what had happened that summer, but also because of our shocking record in that fixture and this was without doubt our best chance in years.

That game was a disastrous result for the club and imo a personal disaster for Stuart McCall and as I said, one which saw him lose a fair section of the support which he never got back. You can argue whether that was right or wrong but given the circumstances, I think it was.perfectly understandable.

The fact that Inverness, whom we'd scudded 4-1 already that season and would go on to beat 5-1 later on, went to Ibrox a few weeks later in the next round and horsed them 3-0 just rubbed salt into the wounds.

[ONeils40yarder]

2 hours ago, Swello said:

No two 'Well fans would agree on what success means - as per thisGRAEME - we are divided on almost every manager we've ever had (never heard praise for Harri Kampmann mind you.)

I tend to look at what a manager has to work with in terms of budget and how much of a mess he inherited. For example, I'd consider Robinson a success if we stay up this season, just as last year - but others have obviously got much higher expectations (which is totally fair enough).

Crudely, since I've watched us:

McLean: Success

McLeish: Failure

Kampmann: Failure

Davies: Failure

Black: Failure

Butcher: Failure (but a fairly enjoyable one)

McGhee #1: Success

Gannon: Failure

Brown: A snivelling wee w**k (but a success)

McCall: Success

Barraclough: Failure

McGhee #2: Failure

I highly doubt anyone would agree with every one of them and therein lies the problem...

 

58 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

FWIW: I've been watching the same length of time, by and large that list matches with my view.

To expand a bit more here are each of those managers records and win %

McLean: Success - P: 403 W: 123  D: 111 L: 169 - 30.52%
McLeish: Failure - P: 134 W: 38 D: 39: L 55 - 28.36%
Kampmann: Failure - P: 21 W: 5 D: 10 L: 6 - 23.81%
Davies: Failure - P: 108 W: 34 D: 28 L: 55 - 31.48%
Black: Failure - P: 27 W: 7 D: 4 L: 16 - 25.93%
Butcher: Failure - P: 154 W: 47  D: 36 L: 71 - 30.52% 
McGhee #1: Success - P: 76 W: 31 D: 15 L: 30 - 40.79%
Gannon: Failure - P: 17 W:  4 D: 8 L: 5  - 23.53%
Brown: A snivelling wee w**k (but a success) - P: 35 W: 16  D: 8 L: 11 - 45.14%
McCall: Success - P: 146 W: 67  D: 25 L: 54 - 45.89%
Barraclough: Failure - P: 32 W: 11  D: 5 L: 21 - 34.38%
McGhee #2: Failure - P: 54 W: 18  D: 10 L: 26 - 33.34%
Robinson: TBC - P 46 W 20 D 7 L 19 - 43.5%

I love how you've both completely air-brushed Maurice 'its your Donald Duck' Malpas out of our history completely...without a shadow of a doubt the worst excuse of a human being ever to be involved at our Club in an official capacity. He would be categorised as sub-failure.

[steelmen]

Happy to have differing opinions and agree to disagree but aye, that's my view on him.  MJC has went into it a bit more in depth and certainly matches my views.

Absolutely right buddy, we can differ in our opinions. The seriously bit was about bringing that c*nt McLeish into it. Can you not compare him to someone else? I would have gannon over McLeish!

[capt_oats]

1 minute ago, ONeils40yarder said:

I love how you've both completely air-brushed Maurice 'its your Donald Duck' Malpas out of our history completely...without a shadow of a doubt the worst excuse of a human being ever to be involved at our Club in an official capacity. He would be categorised as sub-failure.

Ha! I just quoted Swello's post so he's been airbrushed by extension.

FWIW:

Malpas: Failure - P 35 W 10 D 7 L 18 - 26.32%

[steelmen]

Crudely, since I've watched us:
McLean: Success
McLeish: Failure
Kampmann: Failure
Davies: Failure
Black: Failure
Butcher: Failure (but a fairly enjoyable one)
McGhee #1: Success
Gannon: Failure
Brown: A snivelling wee w**k (but a success)
McCall: Success
Barraclough: Failure
McGhee #2: Failure
I highly doubt anyone would agree with every one of them and therein lies the problem...

I’d agree with that, but you do have to put in brackets

Barraclough : Failure(except 2 games in May)

[Desp]

10 minutes ago, steelmen said:

 

 

Absolutely right buddy, we can differ in our opinions. The seriously bit was about bringing that c*nt McLeish into it. Can you not compare him to someone else? I would have gannon over McLeish!

 

I used the comparison as I believe there are a fair number of similarities.

McLeish took on a side with a number of excellent players left by the previous manager and took them to 2nd place, as did McCall with the players left to him by Brown & Gannon.

To Motherwell fans, both were unlikeable ginger c***s in their playing careers.

Both had an embarrassing European exit against Scandinavian opposition as well as having a battling performance (but coming up short) against a European big gun (Dortmund & Panathinaikos).

Both managers saw a number of their previously star men leave the club, and replaced them with utter dross.

I'm sure there are others, but they were my main reasons as to why I was comparing the two and the differing reactions that fans have of them.  Still, it's been an interesting couple of pages and I've enjoyed reading the thoughts of others.  Especially those who don't perhaps agree with my side of things.

Al B made a very good point, something along the lines of it's simply "how much I enjoyed that season" that would define how well it's thought of.  I don't think you'll find two different types of season, for enjoyment levels, than 2012/13 & 2013/14 but ultimately the end result was the same and we finished 2nd.  Albeit, you'd potentially settle for 37 shite games to watch if we got to relive the last minute goal at Pittodrie again!

[MJC]

23 minutes ago, steelmen said:

 

Absolutely right buddy, we can differ in our opinions. The seriously bit was about bringing that c*nt McLeish into it. Can you not compare him to someone else? I would have gannon over McLeish!

 

McLeish is no favourite of mine but we have had far worse managers than him over the years since he left. Kampman, Malpas and Baraclough are the three that spring to mind here and you could argue McGhee second time around as well. I'd put Davies in a similar bracket to McLeish during his time with us in that he was able to spunk ridiculous amounts of cash on utter cross and couldn't manage them. He's not quite the media darling that McLeish is mind you, but like him he blundered his way through managing us before going on to have a decent career elsewhere.

As for Gannon, him and his six month tenure have got to be the strangest times in our recent history. The guy was a bit of a rocket who had ideas way above his station and his ridiculous spat with the media, referees and senior players was a crazy time, as was his obsession with making double substitutions at half time in every match we were winning in...before going on to lose or draw. He still creates a divide in the support almost a decade on from his mad tenure as there are some who saw him as this footballing visionary Messiah who would have transformed us forever more, whilst others thought he was way out of his depth but couldn't bring himself to admit it. His career path since leaving Fir Park would seem to suggest that his doubters were correct. He signed some good players mind you and there was a lot of excitement at the start of that season, but I think had he stayed we would have been in serious relegation trouble that season.

Edited February 6, 2018 by MJC

[Swello]

25 minutes ago, ONeils40yarder said:

 

I love how you've both completely air-brushed Maurice 'its your Donald Duck' Malpas out of our history completely...without a shadow of a doubt the worst excuse of a human being ever to be involved at our Club in an official capacity. He would be categorised as sub-failure.

 I genuinely thought that I had missed someone but just couldn't remember who. If there was ever a manager that needs an airbrushing, it's the architect of Empty Season Ticket Throwing Saturday....

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I'd like to see the 2011-14 ish team under Robinson. Reckon he'd either win a cup or end up shelling balls at Higdon and playing Jonathan Page ahead of Nicky Law. 

[Mr. Brightside]

So winning nothing is an achievement to you?  Fair enough.  Each to their own.  I would have loved to have looked back on us winning a trophy at Hampden, and I firmly believe we missed an opportunity in not doing so.  I also firmly believe the manager should have gotten more out of that team, but didn't do it.  You perhaps don't - again, fair enough.  I can't see the club holding 10th or 25th anniversary parties of that time we finished 2nd twice in a row.
Why would I hold a grudge?  I hold, it would seem, a very different opinion to yours.  I'm evidently not as big as fan of McCall as you were.  It's allowed.

I’m really not sure what you’re expecting here. 3rd, 2nd and 2nd for a club like us is an unequivocal success, sure we didn’t win anything, but it’s not very often anyone outside the Old Firm does. If Gunning’s shot that hit the bar in the final, goes in, it could’ve been completely different, but those are the margins (let’s not forget that Majstorovic should’ve been sent off for his horror tackle on Sutton before they scored)
Really the first hurdle for any Motherwell manager in any season is to stay up, beyond that, top six, but to win the second place trophy twice (3 really) that’s tremendous consistency and they football we played was utterly superb.

[WellView]

Just now, MJC said:

McLeish is no favourite of mine but we have had far worse managers than him over the years since he left. Kampman, Malpas and Baraclough are the three that spring to mind here and you could argue McGhee second time around as well. I'd put Davies in a similar bracket to McLeish during his time with us in that he was able to spunk ridiculous amounts of cash on utter cross and couldn't manage them. He's not quite the media darling that McLeish is mind you, but like him he blundered his way through managing us before going on to have a decent career elsewhere.

As for Gannon, him and his six month tenure have got to be the strangest times in our recent history. The guy was a bit of a rocket who had ideas way above his station and his ridiculous spat with the media, referees and senior players was a crazy time, as was his obsession with making double substitutions at half time in every match we were winning in...before going on to lose or draw. He still creates a divide in the support almost a decade on from his mad tenure as there are some who saw him as this footballing visionary Messiah who would have transformed us forever more, whilst others thought he was way out of his depth but couldn't bring himself to admit it. His career path since leaving Fir Park would seem to suggest that his doubters were correct. He signed some good players mind you and there was a lot of excitement at the start of that season, but I think had he stayed we would have been in serious relegation trouble that season.

I remember hearing members of our under-20 squad talking about Gannon at Wishaw train station - they couldn't believe he hadn't been sacked yet with the turmoil he caused.  That failure belongs entirely to John Boyle. 

[MJC]

9 minutes ago, WellView said:

I remember hearing members of our under-20 squad talking about Gannon at Wishaw train station - they couldn't believe he hadn't been sacked yet with the turmoil he caused.  That failure belongs entirely to John Boyle. 

I would agree, though in fairness to him, Boyle did wield the axe when it all appeared to be crashing down and he replaced him with Brown who got us a comfortable top six finish that year.

Some of the stories about Gannon coming out of Fir Park were damning for the man and I think it's fair to say that a sizeable chunk of the playing squad and staff hated the ground he walked on. I seem to remember someone, possibly Steven McGarry being very vocal about his delight about Gannon getting binned.

Edited February 6, 2018 by MJC