Dons_1988

In fairness that is a fairly simplistic way of looking at it and the reasoning is mot likely due to how HMRC approach tax avoidance. As has been discussed the use of EBT's themselves are legal but used inappropriately (as Rangers did) then it can be illegal. There also has to be an element of reasonableness to any use of tax avoidance, so using an EBT as part of an overall remuneration package could be perfectly acceptable whereby if it was all EBT's HMRC would proably be a bit annoyed. Similarly, if you are a contractor and set up a company to ply your trade as opposed to being a sole trader, you could send yourself dividends at a lower tax rate than if you took a salary from the company. This would be acceptable occasionally but if you always paid a dividend to yourself you'd have HMRC asking you to justify it for reasons other than paying a lower rate of tax.

The whole conversation is so detached from the reality of the fans, or the consumer, if that makes it more palatable for them. We are constantly told about revenues and investment in Scottish football being increased for the good of the game etc and this is where Rangers return comes into it and I have no doubt that is likely the case. However, not one person can tell me how that benefits me as a supporter of Aberdeen and Scottish football. More games between Celtic and Rangers does not impact on my life at all other than having my head in my hands at the farce that is the Old Firm derby. A two horse race does not benefit me. Aberdeen getting an extra 100k does not benefit me as for every 100k we get, Celtic/Rangers get £1m, so it serves to widen the gap. They're so concerned with how Scottish football is seen from the outside, what do England thing, what does UEFA think etc that they've forgotten we're a small country that is never likely to have a big fanbase outside of our borders. They should be doing everything they can to engage with as much of SCOTLAND as possible. It is not rangers and celtic that attracts fans, it is competition. While the people running the game are incentivised by revenue and the bottom line, we will never go anywhere.

I literally spoke to one yesterday who told me how painful it was to be an arsenal fan

I have had enough of this long suffering fans pish. I hear it from Arsenal fans it's fucking laughable but from the fans of the dead club Christ. Years of winning trophy after trophy, admin losing a few games and the league, then reforming winning 2 leagues at a canter before actually having to compete with teams and finish 3rd before going back to winning by 3 or 4 every week. Long suffering FFS

I liked it. I would welcome more saints factoids

As alluded to earlier these are complex legal matters which none of us can confidently comment upon.But to simplify the situation for you, if HMRC come to you and suggest your tax avoidance is overly aggressive and possibly legal and they feel they have grounds to pursue you and you: A) hold your hands up and pay them or; B - say you disagree and will fight them to the Supreme Court over it The result will probably turn out different for you. We'll see if you can draw a parallel to our conversation.

You do realise HMRC exist to collect tax. So in these situations once tax is paid, that's kind of the end of the matter?

I know. BDO can't even claim to be the people

I've pulled him up on this already, he's not going to answer

Of course this is whataboutery, show me where other clubs have been found guilty of breaking the law. Do you feel like living in a society where we punish everyone on the basis of probability that somewhere down the line you must have broken a law at some point? And if a club was found guilty of misrepresenting attendances to fudge tax liabilities that is very much tax evasion and cheating, and if found guilty should be punished.

In fairness, there is no black and white answer here, there is a lot of ambiguity around the whole situation and anyone speaking as if they know 100% the right answer whether its with regards to legality of the EBT's, how Rangers applied them, the direct correlation to sporting success etc is just going to make themselves look silly. HOWEVER, and this is heavily caveated, and I stated earlier in the thread that I have no interest in title stripping really, if they really were guilty of breaking the law in order to sign players then it has to at least be looked at, it has to. The argument of 'did they really get a sporting advantage because x may or may not have signed etc' is totally moot. If the verdict is that they signed players using unlawful means then it simply has to be looked at. I maintain however that there is no way titles will be stripped, it opens far too big a can of worms for something that in my own eyes means relatively little. As ridiculous as Rangers statement was yesterday (and it was fucking hilarious ), there was a sentiment in there that I agreed with and that is that we should be looking forward and trying to improve scottish football. I sense however that Rangers vision of a better Scottish football is slightly different to mine however....

To me that merely states that EBT's are not an illegal concept which they are not. It does not state that there is no application of EBT's that is illegal, which, given Rangers were found guilty of unlawful application of EBT's last week, seem fairly obvious.

My favourite from Rangers Media "A good statement, which portrays us as "being the bigger man.""

'How dare you question us? Don't you know who we are? We are the same club really, f**k you all, we don't want our titles stripped Let's move on for all of your sake, as you are all burning in hell without us' See I can write Rangers statements too

Another proud day for a proud club That statement is so good

^ lol, wonders why they attract hatred

The sad thing is this is not an isolated opinion there is a campaign out there to push this opinion. Again failing to acknowledge that his beloved failed at getting promoted. Tell me Richard, which clubs that got promoted fair and square should make way for rangers and hibs because...well because...they should just be there.

How much you willing to bet?

The argument is shot down when you consider the semi final they contested last season. It was a training exercise for Celtic, hardly preparation for Europes elite FFS. This journalism is so fucking lazy that rangers return will solve all our problems. I can't actually fathom how it is an accepted rhetoric.

They will not be stripped of titles. No chance. And in all honesty the true disgrace of Scottish football is the actions of everyone involved in first trying to place them back in the spl and then the frankly disgusting attempt to put them in division 1. Genuinely I think that is Scottish footballs real scandal, not the use of EBT's.

I'm going to go against the diddy grain here and say I am not fussed about them having titles stripped. Unfortunately it happened and I don't see what good it really does anyone. The subsequent seethe from the **** would simply be an old firm tit for tat about number of titles won which would frankly be very boring. What the whole sorry mess did show up was the absolute sham that was the two horse race during that period, where two clubs outspent each other (we now know one did through unlawful means) to the detriment of the whole sport, not that we didn't know that already. The saddest thing for me is that this was an opportunity to fix it, to really shake up the game seeing as it was of course Armageddon anyway and come away from the Old firm centric sport we watch. They will always be the two biggest in the league but we could have levelled the playing field a bit more. It seems now we're coming to the end of that window of opportunity and it honestly seems that no lessons have been learned at the sfa, spl, celtic or rangers and we are heading straight back to where we were. All to satisfy some tv companies really. The people running scottish football really do need to be ashamed.

Have I said something you disagree with?

From a legal perspective unfortunately yes

The reality is today most likely means very little. The newco has no liability with regards to todays decision. I don't claim to know the details of ongoing fraud inquiries etc so unless that throws up something huge in terms of the transfer of assets etc I would imagine today means next to f**k all in terms of what happens next. It is however good to know that the law has seen sense.

you're right, top guy