Livingston - all the threads merged

[Savage Henry]

Perhaps the SFL haven't acted as they have received private reassurances from the council that there will still be a team at Almondvale next season?

After all, "maintaining senior football at Livingston is the priority"- not it would seem the waste of hundreds of thousands of pounds of ratepayers cash, propping up a demonstrably failed project. I really can't see the council ever playing hardball and meaning it with Livingston. The appearance of Rankine at the last moment may just have convinced any council waverers.

I honestly think that if Livingston were going bust that someone would have administered the coup de grace by now. The fact that they still exist, at least on paper, suggests that they will still be around next season.

I don't think there's a hope in hell Livingston make it to the end of the season. The last rites have been called for, if they haven't perhaps yet been administered.

[Chuckinho]

Yeah, but the SPL should get crucified if they allow Livi to start the season. Getting one team down is not acceptable. Put em in the third division or elect someone else pure and simple...

[renton]

From what I'm hearing, if Livi don't meet the rent payment and the Council decide to play hardball instead of offering more time, they could have gone into the early stages of bankruptcy by about the middle of July. (Suggestion seems to be between 9th and 16th of July, depending on timings).

So surely you cannot go about promoting clubs a couple of weeks before the season begins, when they have built squads for the division below? If Airdrie and Cowdenbeath step up but get humped every week, and end up getting relegated - having played in front of smaller crowds - surely that is worse for them than staying down, and having a run at promotion and possibly going up? Plus how do you fill the vacancy in the Third Division? If they can run with 9 clubs, why not the First?

I have to say that I'd be surprised if the SFL has enough time to replace a defunct/dying Livi side.

to be fair, their squad would still be competitive with Raith and Ayr, there is no reason to believe that they could not make the immediate step back up, if it came down to it.

There is less at stake with the third possibly having to run it with nine clubs, since their division obivously has a less complicated system of changing teams because of the lack of relegation.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Yeah, but the SPL should get crucified if they allow Livi to start the season. Getting one team down is not acceptable. Put em in the third division or elect someone else pure and simple...

What's the SPL got to do with it?

[HibeeJibee]

I still think Airdrie and Cowdenbeath (in particular Airdrie...) would be unhappy at being promoted.

Also, what can the SFL do? They certainly can't demote Livi before they go into administration - it would effectively be demoting a club for being in debt... and nothing else. Even in administration I don't think the SFL can really step in and hurl them into the Third Division: SFL clubs have been in administration before, and not been demoted - and surely the administrator would have cause to pursue them for loss of income etc. from playing in the Third? They cannot relegate them just 'cos.

Unless Livi cannot make basic guarentees on their ground/players/transport for next season - as was the case with Gretna - then I cannot imagine the SFL relegating them, until they are wound up or on the verge of it. And if we get into late July, then there is no going back IMO. Clubs like Spartans or Cove might circle if Livi go bust mid-season, and hope to take over their record, but there is little if any precedent for that in the SFL (and it would domino and affect other leagues).

Edited June 26, 2009 by HibeeJibee

[Guest Wall E]

The hole that Massone has dug may be too deep for anyone who cares about Livingston to climb out of.

[vikingTON]

Bye to final asset, bye to Massone, bye to the franchise.

[Ivo den Bieman]

To be fair when i wrote that last post I hadn't read the council's new and very hardline statement. It's hard to see how they could resile from their latest position and retain any credibility, if a joint Rankine-Massone "enhanced payment plan" is accepted.

Massone faces Hobson's choice really- either default on the rent and be kicked out of Almondvale, or fail to pay the players wages on time and finally face SFL sanctions. It's clear that even with the sale of Griffiths, he doesn't have the money to do both.

[Monster]

I still think Airdrie and Cowdenbeath (in particular Airdrie...) would be unhappy at being promoted.

Also, what can the SFL do? They certainly can't demote Livi before they go into administration - it would effectively be demoting a club for being in debt... and nothing else. Even in administration I don't think the SFL can really step in and hurl them into the Third Division: SFL clubs have been in administration before, and not been demoted - and surely the administrator would have cause to pursue them for loss of income etc. from playing in the Third? They cannot relegate them just 'cos.

Unless Livi cannot make basic guarentees on their ground/players/transport for next season - as was the case with Gretna - then I cannot imagine the SFL relegating them, until they are wound up or on the verge of it. And if we get into late July, then there is no going back IMO. Clubs like Spartans or Cove might circle if Livi go bust mid-season, and hope to take over their record, but there is little if any precedent for that in the SFL (and it would domino and affect other leagues).

I'll tell you what the S.F.L. could do, if they had any backbone: take punitive action for contravention of a vitally important rule, namely payment of contracts.

Demote them for failure to honour contracts. It should have been done in May, so that the players and staff could be released and look for other clubs and try to get their back wages.

Also, if posssible, take Massone to court for bringing the game into disrepute and get shot of him, although I realise that would be fraught with pitfalls.

[Guest]

To be fair when i wrote that last post I hadn't read the council's new and very hardline statement. It's hard to see how they could resile from their latest position and retain any credibility, if a joint Rankine-Massone "enhanced payment plan" is accepted.

Massone faces Hobson's choice really- either default on the rent and be kicked out of Almondvale, or fail to pay the players wages on time and finally face SFL sanctions. It's clear that even with the sale of Griffiths, he doesn't have the money to do both.

The thing is, the SFL are probably just as inept as Massone........and will be even bigger suckers for a hard luck story. Massone has now sold all of the family silver, and tbh, I think they've more or less had market value for them. Griffiths stands as much chance of becoming anonymous as he does of repeating his goals scoring record of last year.

I don't know if the money has gone to LFC or LiviDream. If its the latter, then its doubtful if the council could touch it. Massone has asset stripped like a good 'un, yet there are still a few reckoning he's worth one more chance. Where that kind of thinking comes from is anybody's guess.

Tonight's protest is going to tell us a fair bit about the levels of resistance. It might well be as much about serving notice of capitulation as it is about resistance. If its 50 or 60 people again, then Massone has won the fight if not the war.

That the Trust have failed to take the moral high ground in all of this is worrying. They have had several opportunities handed to them on a plate, and seem to have let them all pass by.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Guest

[Yoss]

I'll tell you what the S.F.L. could do, if they had any backbone: take punitive action for contravention of a vitally important rule, namely payment of contracts.

Demote them for failure to honour contracts. It should have been done in May, so that the players and staff could be released and look for other clubs and try to get their back wages.

But if the immediate effect of that is to make Massone pull out and the club go under, that would probably scupper those who were owed the money - all very well taking a stance on their behalf but it might not be in their best interests to act that way.

I accept that it can be argued the other way too, there was indeed a case for taking stronger action on that basis. And if as we all strongly suspect, Livi go under anyway and causes all kinds of additional problems because of the delay then the SFL will get all manner of stick for it. But it was far from easy to be sure they could have acted any differently.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Just met a fairly reliable source, an ex-copper, who is still involved in security and match organisation.He told me that Livi are very unlikely to fold or be kicked out soon. They are paying the most pressing bills as they arise ie the ones that matter to the league. The SFL seem comfortable that they will take their place in Div 1, and there seems to be no pressure from other teams to have them step in.

I am still dubious about their ability to continue, but as I said he was a copper and since he wasn't in court has no reason to lie. Might be pish, just thought I'd share.

[Hen Broon]

Just met a fairly reliable source, an ex-copper, who is still involved in security and match organisation.He told me that Livi are very unlikely to fold or be kicked out soon. They are paying the most pressing bills as they arise ie the ones that matter to the league. The SFL seem comfortable that they will take their place in Div 1, and there seems to be no pressure from other teams to have them step in.

I am still dubious about their ability to continue, but as I said he was a copper and since he wasn't in court has no reason to lie. Might be pish, just thought I'd share.

Was it Charlie????

Edited June 26, 2009 by Hen Broon

[Mabawsa_Ritchie]

Just met a fairly reliable source, an ex-copper, who is still involved in security and match organisation.He told me that Livi are very unlikely to fold or be kicked out soon. They are paying the most pressing bills as they arise ie the ones that matter to the league. The SFL seem comfortable that they will take their place in Div 1, and there seems to be no pressure from other teams to have them step in.

I am still dubious about their ability to continue, but as I said he was a copper and since he wasn't in court has no reason to lie. Might be pish, just thought I'd share.

I would have thought paying the leccy bill was quite 'pressing', but Massone hasn't paid that yet has he?

[ObserverFromAfar]

Demolition Derby Gordon announces his "vision" if he were to "own" the shambles. BBC has the latest... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ton/8121913.stm

Alec Cleland and Gary Bollan to be brought in as coaches. obviously the current staff (suspended / unsuspended) would have to be dealt with first no doubt. Disappointing no mention of a big dirt track being built or even a huge figure of 8 right across the pitch. That may be in the next announcement.

[Monster]

But if the immediate effect of that is to make Massone pull out and the club go under, that would probably scupper those who were owed the money - all very well taking a stance on their behalf but it might not be in their best interests to act that way.

I accept that it can be argued the other way too, there was indeed a case for taking stronger action on that basis. And if as we all strongly suspect, Livi go under anyway and causes all kinds of additional problems because of the delay then the SFL will get all manner of stick for it. But it was far from easy to be sure they could have acted any differently.

Do you think the S.F.L. are monitoring the situation closely and weighing the issue like many of us have on this thread though, or do you think they're ostriching and hoping it will go away?

[Sergeant Wilson]

I would have thought paying the leccy bill was quite 'pressing', but Massone hasn't paid that yet has he?

True.

They had a generator the last I heard. As I said it could be rubbish, but it kind of fits in. He carries on regardless and The SFL wont do anything until the last possible minute. I still think it will go belly up, but obviously can't say when.

[Yoss]

Do you think the S.F.L. are monitoring the situation closely and weighing the issue like many of us have on this thread though, or do you think they're ostriching and hoping it will go away?

I don't think we're monitoring the situation closely at all, we're reacting to gossip and blethering pish in the way that people do on internet chatsites (and long may it continue). I don't think the SFL have much more idea of what's going on than we do; and they can't act on gossip.

[Guest]

I don't think we're monitoring the situation closely at all, we're reacting to gossip and blethering pish in the way that people do on internet chatsites (and long may it continue). I don't think the SFL have much more idea of what's going on than we do; and they can't act on gossip.

It seems as if the Cowdenbeath chap is the new owner of choice. Thing is, he'll only want it if he can have it for buttons.........which means administration. If he were offered it for a quid tomorrow, I think he'd hesitate. No-one knows the real scale of the debt. The council money is merely the stuff that's known. It could well be the best part of a million or more. Due diligence could yet uncover some pretty staggering stuff.

If it all comes to pass, it'll be interesting how long it will take for the novelty of paying debts and living within their means to wear off. Hopefully never. That is if it happens.........

Livingston with no shadey characters in charge.........that will be a novelty in itself.

[Monster]

I don't think we're monitoring the situation closely at all, we're reacting to gossip and blethering pish in the way that people do on internet chatsites (and long may it continue). I don't think the SFL have much more idea of what's going on than we do; and they can't act on gossip.

Much of what is being surmised about is directly from interviews available online with Massone himself. Okay, there are no concrete facts about deliberate mismanagement, but when a guy states he's had the electricity to the stadium cut off deliberately to teach the fans a lesson, it's a situation that calls for strong league leadership and intervention.

Anyway, I heard Massone is a purple lizard that can shape-shift and was part of the planning for 9/11.